to think that the formula companies are succeeding with their campaign to promote formula to be as good as breast milk...

[MissyKLo]

...when it isn't?

this article rang true in so many ways

www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2010/10/how-breast-is-best-came-to-be.html

Breast milk is of course, full of amazing antibodies and nourishment etc that formula can never replicate - but the formula companies are winning in their campaign to make people believe that formula is as good as breast milk aren't they? A lot of people don't see bf as a big deal and that babies are 'perfectly fine' on formula. But what about all the benefits of breast milk and the fact that so many babies don't ever get these?

Breast milk cannot be beaten on so many levels so why are the formula companies allowed to get away with this?!!!!!!

Of course its a valid opinion- but its also a judgemental one, like me saying mums who breast feed longer than the recommended 6 months are doing it for their own benefit/are a bit pervy etc...

Been off in RL.

Gemsy my apologies, it was Diablo I made a mistake.

My point still stands though, that with the statement that Diablo made BF mothers are being judged.

Why?

Gemsy - breastfeeding isn't recommended for 6 months though. It is recommended for at least the first year by the DoH and to be continued as long as wanted. The WHO recommend for two years and beyond.

If you stopped breastfeeding at 6 months you would still need to give formula. Therefore BF is still needed.

I dont know. But FF mothers are judged too, too many people having their 'opinion' on the right reasons for babies to be ff- good and bad reasons such as tried but lack of milk supply- good reason, tried but exhaused hated the thought of it at the next feed- bad reason, wanting others to share the feeding- bad reason etc. As long as the mother KNOWS bf is the best option for her baby then thats her choice to not do it!

Yes Gemsy, it is her choice not to do it but is it free choice? Most people actually do try to initiate bf (look at the stats from the last infant feeding survey) but give up because of bad advice or lack of support.

And someone who doesn't initiate bf because they have misconceptions about it due to formula companies propaganda, or having never seen anyone bf, or thinking it is "icky" or whatever - is this free choice? I would argue, not always. You are right though - if a choice not to do it is informed then I for one wouldn't feel it is any of my business.

I'll rephrase that any choice not to bf isn't my business - but I reserve the right to try to improve support and normalise bf so that more people can make informed choice :)

Amazing how there is so much ignorance on how long it is beneficial to bf for especially as two years of bf is recOmmended by the WHO and the benefits of bf this long is brilliant for a child

I really am finding that there is a prejudice against BF mothers and those who want to try it.

As I said yesterday, I was unable to BF my DS1, I want to BF my second, when she/he arrives in 14 weeks(ish) and I am going to, God willing. However, I am finding it really sad that there is not much acceptance for BF.

I just can't understand this. Breast milk is made for babies, it's been around as long as man has and that is longer than formula milk!

I wouldn't dream of judging anyone on either choice but I am finding it very hard to get my head around this climate that is not 100% supportive of mothers who want to BF .

Latest DoH figures for breastfeeding*

44,9% at 6-8 weeks hardly makes bf the norm.

Given that one of the defining features of mammals (the group to which we as Homo Sapiens Sapiens belong) is suckling of their young I find it hard to believe that we as a species would have survived (never mind evolved to the top of the food-chain) had we been unable to feed our babies.

So, something (marketing, medicalisation of childbirth, undermining women's power and abilities to sustain their babies. Or perhaps a little bit of everything) must have worked towards creating a society where feeding our babies the milk from another species is not only seen as normal but equal (in in some cases superior) to human milk.

*Please note that these stats fall under the DoH's Public Health Stats section as an indicator of health.

It is particularly disheartening to me that the initiation rate is only 56.9% in the North-East of England

missyklohiya,you and i have had this discussion before and you know my very good reason for being unable to bf,but the thing that does worry me is that the lack of advice re ff makes it really hard to look into it should you need or choose to ff,i found that very difficult tbh,even the mw and hv cant or wont give too much advice.
I aggree that wherever possible you should try to bf,i am very sad at the mo as my 4wk old has reflux and is still lower than her birth weight,she has been thru so much already id love to be able to snuggle her up and bf her buti just cant.
A lady on our an thread as just had a still born tho so i am gratefull just to have her.

Yes libra it is almost amusing - I keep being called all kinds of things because my opinion is that women should bf if they can but I have nit insulted anyone or had a go but hey ho

I am happy with how I feel about it

By the way look up these books ad they are fantastic to read for bf

The food of love by Kate Evans
How weaning happens by Diane bengson
Mothering your nursing toddler by Bumgarner

All available from amazon x

Just curious Libra what experiences have you had of this? V sad!

Libra, thank you very much indeed for your kind words earlier on the thread I have also set up a Facebook page at www.facebook.com/HowBreastfeedingWorks - come and "like" it and post your concerns there, if you would like to.

As I said, I am a veteran of this sort of debate, first dipping my toe into the bf/ff online thing in 2004.

It has always been my view that there is nothing to argue about - for many women, breastfeeding is important, for others, it is less so, for still others, it is absolutely not going to feature in their mothering repertoire.

The last group is often the one that is focused upon by those who write about breastfeeding nazis - they are the ones who are talked about being "forced" to consider breastfeeding, who are called "selfish" and "bitch" and "not fit to be a mother" (all things I have heard and read ).

But I really think the focus is all wrong.

The first group, the women for whom breastfeeding is immensely important, the women who want to do it, desperately - they are the ones for whom promotion is irrelevant, but support is key. Promotion without support does not work. It does not work.

So banging on about breastfeeding being best, about formula being risky, about obesity, about tooth decay, about palate and bite development, about bonding, intelligence, clinginess - about all the many and various studies and research that get splattered across the papers - ALL that does is set women up to feel pretty fkn lousy when as soon as they have their baby, they are dismissed as nuisances for needing help with initiating breastfeeding and told that formula's pretty much the same thing as breastmilk anyway.

THAT is what makes women feel guilty - spending pregnancies expecting that breastfeeding will be straightforward and then being launched head-first into the mess that is postnatal breastfeeding support in so many areas. No bloody wonder 6-8 week rates are so low. No bloody wonder threads like this have such an emotionally charged response.

We set women up to feel lousy postnatally, again and again. And then we bash those who are trying to do something about it, because it "doesn't matter how other women feed their babies".

Yes, it really does. Because those "other women" are you, you, you and you. Oh, and me. I was one of those women, who struggled, who was vulnerable, let down by those who should've helped me. I'm doing something about it because it matters. It Just Does.

What HBW said. Spot bloody on.

Support is all.

See, if 70% of women give BF a try, it seems to me that women have got the message (and why wouldn't we - we aint thick).

But something happens after that. Something that perhaps we can help with.

You evidently do want to help. And have thought about how best to do that.

I completely agree with your position.
If one wants to have a positve impact, one considers how best to go about it.

But I suspect that some posters don't actually want to make the most impact, they just want to make the most noise.

I recall a thread once where a well known BF poster was banging on and on about obesity and IQ points yadda yadda yadda.
And I pointed out that I was involved in a tennaged pregnancy group - the very group of women who might most benefit from BF what with poor living conditions, hardly any money etc.

But I needed to tread very carefully and not frighten these girls away.
You catch more bees with honey than vinegar, I said.

'I care for neither bees nor honey nor vinegar' she told me loftily. If the truth hurts, then so be it.

It that moment I knew she did not give a flying fuck about those young women or their babies.

MissyKlo thank you for the recommendations. I've just been online to my library and have placed a request for two of them and they are being sent to my local library for collection. The Food of Love by Kate Evans, I've also requested but that may take a little longer. Hampshire Libraries don't hold it, so I have put in an 'inter library request' to see if they can find it elsewhere. I'll let you know how I go.

HowBreastFeedingWorks I'm in awe! You have a tremendous amount of compassion and knowledge to share and I have visited your FB site and 'liked', so I'll be a visitor there for sure. Thank you so much for your support.

ellangirl my first encounter with feeling dismissed was with DS1, when I wanted to BF after the nurses had started him on formula. I was given no assistance whatsoever, which I found totally demoralising tbh. I asked for help and was told that DS1 was already feeding well on formula (which he wasn't) and it was 'too late'. I found this hard to accept. I tried for myself, with the help of a mother in the next bed, but DS1 was reluctant and without the help of the nurses I found myself in unchartered territory and very lonely indeed.

I had an EMCS with DS1 and was out of it on morphine for over 2 days after birth, I was in bad shape physically and found I could not get comfortable in the bed with DS1, when trying to feed him. The nurses gave me no help with trying different positions (I was in considerable pain from the surgery) and at night, took him away, while I slept. One night (my first full night not on morphine) I got up and staggered down to the nurses station to find him and I was ushered back to bed, admonished for getting up and told that they would take care of him. I felt bullied and that my wishes were not being taken seriously. As a first time mum, I felt I was being 'told off' and that they knew better than me.

Once discharged from hospital, the midwife who came to see me and then the HV, again gave me no help to try and get DS1 to BF. It was quite simply a case of 'he's on the bottle now, leave it be'.

DS1 had a terrible time feeding, milk intolerance and reflux. It was an awful time for both of us and I am determined not to be bullied this time.

I'm 26wks pregnant now and although my current midwife (totally different area of the country this time) is supportive of me wanting to BF, my conversations with her about this have been only at my booking in (weeks and weeks ago) and no information has been offered to me in regard to BF at all.

I have had to found out as much as I can for myself. One of the local charity shops had a copy of the NCT Breastfeeding Book on sale for £1, which I snapped up and am reading at the moment. Also MissyKlo has now recommended some books for me, which I have ordered from the library.

I'm finding it difficult to understand why BF just isn't being actively promoted in the medical community, when it is the most natural way to feed. In every magazine, baby literature etc, there are adverts everywhere for formula, bottles etc. I don't see any adverts from the medical council or the NCT however, promoting BF and giving contact details for mums to be who want to BF. I don't understand why this is.

I do understand though that some mothers either don't want to BF or can't or have had similar experiences to myself. I can totally see that it would be wrong to make any of these mothers feel guilty or inadequate or wrong etc etc, and that this fear of unintentionally alienating women, needs to be avoided. What I do not understand at all though, is that this seems to impact on the open support available to mothers who do want to BF and need help, advice and guidance. I feel that the needs of BF mothers and those who want to BF are being sacrificed through fear of upsetting other Mums who don't want to/can't BF.

We all have the right to choose and I don't believe that either choice is wrong per se, but I do believe BF mums are getting the thin end of the wedge.

Libra,

I LOVE LOVE LOVE kate evan's book. It is bloody brilliant! Have a look on ebay, i got my copy for 99p!!! Best 99p i've spent on baby books!

Have you asked your mw about local BF support in your area?

Try calling LLL, ABM, or NCT, or national bf hotline, they should all be able to give you details of local help in your community to give you support before and after you have you LO.

Goodluck

xxx

libra that's really terrible. I do empathise a little- I couldn't get up for a few days after birth and it's crappy having to rely on the midwives who always seem so busy, and sometimes make that very obvious. I recommend the LLL if you want lots of positive stories about bfeeding, they were lovely to me.

LibraPoppyGirl - your story makes me and .

Hope you and your baby are treated better this time around.

Why don't hospitals have those little sidecar cots? It would make things so much easier for mums who can't get out of bed and it would save the midwife having to run in and out...common sense surely.

Hi All

I was in RL, had to pop to the shops and then a ham bagel and a jam doughnut forced me to eat them .

Bananamash, ellangirl, Cleofartra and bubbleyummy thanks for your comments and kind words and suggestions. I shall definitely be looking into them and I'll take a look on ebay for the book too .

I feel very positive about BF this next LO and what really does give me a great deal of comfort, is having found such wonderful and kind support from women like you all, on MN.

Thank you xx

Bubbly I think they all do have those little cots. I just couldn't move- too much pain, catheter and blood loss meant I was fainting even if I stood up. So, I had to get the MW to come and give me the baby every time he wanted feeding, changing etc. I felt like a total inconvenience! Nice birth I had :o
Libra- what nice post. Much more cheerful than most of this thread!!

Ellan - the sidecar ones latch onto the beds - its a bedside cot (3 sides) so you wouldn't have to get up. You could just roll over to feed/change/comfort/check for the millionth time that they're still breathing if you're anything like me! :)