to want to get married?

[marriagematerial]

I've been with my DP for six years, living together for almost four. I'm in my late 30s and have a daughter from a previous relationship. The past few years I've dropped quite a few hints that I'd like to get married, but DP says he doesn't see the point in marriage at all. Neither of us are religious at all - in fact he is strongly athiest. I broached the subject seriously yesterday (as opposed to the usual slightly barbed humour/hints) and said that it is something that matters to me; to be legally recognised as his next of kin and as his wife. Partly it's that I feel the terms 'girlfriend/boyfried' to be a bit ridiculous in reference to a long-term relationship between people over the age of 30, 'partner' still seems a bit too much like a business partner, and 'other half' is a little bit naff. I'd prefer to be able to say 'my husband'. Is that a really trivial reason for wanting to be married?

DP feels that the 'promise' of marriage is not one anyone can realistically make - things change, people change; if the relationship breaks down then having promised to stay together forever isn't going to make any difference. I have no illusions about marriage being necessarily forever either - I'm divorced after a short marriage years ago. His parents were unhappily married, mine were messily divorced. Yet I still want to be his wife, for the reasons I've listed and also something more, that I can't quite put my finger on.

I'd thought that it might be because I haven't got anything to offer financially - I only work part time - or that he'd think I'd then have a claim to the house (it's in his name only). He swears that's not the case and that he's happy with our situation, and I think he knows me well enough to know that I wouldn't try to get any money from him if we separated.

So....aibu to want to get married even when he's stated that he doesn't. And would it be a hollow joy if we did get married, knowing that he didn't really want to? [confusion]

RunnerHasbeen and fit2drop thank you for your lovely posts - I really appreciate them.

Bogeyface "If this is his first long term relationship perhaps he is wondering whether there is still something better out there and doesnt want to cut himself off from that by marrying you."

I don't think that's the case - he's not on the lookout for someone else. The significant relationships he had prior to me ended because he was so emotionally remote and couldn't open up to anyone. I never found that to be the case with him, and I know he tried hard to be more open. He was petrified before we moved in together, as he'd never lived with anyone before and felt that he needed a lot of space and solitude (in fairly short supply in my household ). In fact, it's been fine, and we've been living together very happily for almost four years (in which time he's managed to buy a house, involving a move away from the city in which we lived.

It would be a far more complex matter for us to separate than it was to separate from and divorce my ex-husband (we had no children) as I feel our lives are so twined together. I agree, though, that being married probably makes you consider longer and harder before separating.

Slingasong "I think it's sad that you don't think you have any right to a claim on his assets in the event of a split - are you prepared for you and your DD to suffer the drop in living conditions due to the lack of financial protection? For married couples, it's accepted that you'd have a claim due to supporting your DP and looking after the home while he worked - that still applies to your situation now, yet you don't have that protection."

I don't feel entitled to claim on his assets in the event of a separation, and to honest, nor would I if we were married. I've always been a bit crap with money, whereas he's always been very sensible. He'd saved the money for the deposit and he pays the mortgage. If I worked FT and paid half the mortgage, then I'd feel entitled, but I don't, so yes, I'm prepared to suffer a drop in living conditions for DD & me if we split. I feel very lucky that he pretty much supports us all and that I have the luxury of being primarily a 'homemaker'. It's my choice to do this, facilitated by him, and it works for our family; but he'd be just as happy for me to work FT and contribute more to the pot, I expect. I didn't expect anything from my husband when we divorced, and I wouldn't expect anything from DP. He does have insurance so that if he dies, the mortgage would be paid off and the house would be mine.

karma "but I think there is something wrong when one person actively doesn't want to marry the other person."
Last night was the first time we've properly discussed it, so that he really knows how I feel. I guess I'm waiting to see if that makes any difference.
"when DH and I got married, nothing changed in terms of our daily lives, but we both felt different. It was a good change and has added something that I find very difficult to define to our relationship. It's invisible but it is there"
That's the thing karma - I liked being married (despite the untimely end of the marriage ) - it felt warm and kind of secure. I'd like to feel that with DP; that indefinable something.

Jumpforjoy thanks. I guess i am more used to getting insults on AIBU! lol

Marriagematerial & Karma I think thats exactly what I'm trying to say. That warm, secure feeling thats invisible and impossible to define. That's what I want too.

For the other women I used to live with, I wanted a parachute.

You don't need marriage to be in a committed relationship.

YOur best bet is to allow him some time to think it over, MM. You have now told him how important it is to you, and it's up to him to decide how important remaining unmarried is to him. It would be unfair to expect him to buy you a ring and book a registrar immediately - he is just as entitled to reject marriage as you are to want it. But if you keep communicati9ng with each other and really listen to each other's point of view, you should be able to sort out a way forward.

Not read all the posts here

OP I was in a relationship for several years with a man who felt it was "just a bit of paper" and not necessary despite my saying it was important to me and I didn't feel it was 'justa bit of paper'.

He said later he didn't realise how important it was to me, and that he thought I was just moaning and was actually happy because he was happy and couldn't see that I wasn't... That he didn't realise how unhappy I was about it until after I left him.
By then it was too late and my love for him had died.

Older and wiser now I wouldn't hang about waiting for someone who didn't understand how important security and comitment is to a long term relationship and how it can be deeply emotionally destructive to be denied that by your partner.

Marriage doesn't have to be about religion or in a church, so I don't see how him being an atheist is relevant.

And if it is 'just a bit of paper' why does he object so much to it? If it's meaningless to him and very important to you surely he would be the one to compromise here, as it's not upsetting him to agree as it's apparently so meaningless but it is having a deep emotional impact on your welbeing in the relationship...

At the end of he day I'm afraid he probably doesn't think of you as his life long partner. And seriously, can he be yours when he won't give you the outward show of love, comitment and security you are asking for..?

SGB yes that's exactly what I'll do - we've discussed how we feel and I won't mention it again; give him some time to think (hopefully) about what I've said. I certainly wouldn't expect the ring and the registrar - he's not a man who leaps into things on the spur of the moment!

Gillybean "At the end of he day I'm afraid he probably doesn't think of you as his life long partner. And seriously, can he be yours when he won't give you the outward show of love, comitment and security you are asking for..?"

My worry on some level is that he 'just doesn't love me enough to marry me'. But on the other hand he is a kind, generous, considerate, funny and loving partner who has never given me any reason to feel insecure, jealous, or to doubt his commitment to our relationship and family. This certainly isn't something I'd leave him over.

You can tell a lot about a man's emotions from his actions (or failure to act). And in this case one foot 'in' is the same as one foot 'out'. If he's not prepared to get married then basically he's keeping his options open because he's not sure you're the one for him. Sorry.

Marriage IS important. It's the foundation of a family, a contract between him, you and your DD, that you are a permanent unit. That you'll work on it, even when times are tough. That you'll be faithful to each other. That you won't think selfishly, and you'll put your family first. That's what marriage means. His lack of enthusiasm for marriage basically means that he's not prepared to put you or your family first. After six years, yep, I'd be moving on.

Personally I think when people say they "don't believe in marriage" it's another way of saying "I want to be able to walk away from you and this relationship when I damn well please without any strings".

Im sorry but I cringe at people who in effect have to beg their partner to marry them.

Me too, Gemsy.

An unmarried relationship can be just as committed and lasting etc etc as a marriage. But I'm afraid the defining factor in a lasting committed unmarried relationship tends to be that both partners reject the institution of marriage for political/philosophical/equally important personal reasons.
Unfortunately when one partner wants marriage and the other doesn't, it can become a problem: either the marriage-craving partner gets sick of the other's refusal to give what is wanted, or the other gets sick of the pressure, however subtle, to marry.
Or they get married and every time they have a row, the relucant one yells at the other 'Well you wanted to get married, didn't you?'

OK it can work out, the marriage-objector thinks through his/her reasons and decides that if marriage will make the other person happy it's not that big an ask, but the longer the disagreement has been going on, the less likely it is to have a happy resolution.

Thanks for that Toby and Gemsy I haven't begged him, I've told him that it's something which matters to me, and we discussed it.

kiwi "His lack of enthusiasm for marriage basically means that he's not prepared to put you or your family first."

But he already does put us first - everything he does and plans is centred around us as a family, and has been since we moved in together.

SGB "OK it can work out, the marriage-objector thinks through his/her reasons and decides that if marriage will make the other person happy it's not that big an ask, but the longer the disagreement has been going on, the less likely it is to have a happy resolution."

If he doesn't change his mind, then I'll let the issue go completely - it's certainly not worth compromising our relationship for when everything else is good. I know from experience that the best of intentions to be married forever can go to the wall and end up in divorce (and don't 50% of marriages end in divorce now?), so it's not something I'd issue ultimatums or leave over - it doesn't matter that much, it's just something I'd really like.

Thanks for all your perspectives; they've been really helpful to me in sorting out how I feel about this.

But the trouble is, he might feel like you're begging him (directly or indirectly).

It reminds me of the "I don't want to have sex but my partner expects it" threads, but in reverse. On those threads, the OPs are told "you shouldn't have to give in to him, and he should not try to persuade you to do it when you don't want to". But on this thread, quite a few posters have said "he ought to give in to you because it's important to you".

Kind of off the point, but interesting, IMO.

Hi, posting in my lunch hour. This has hit a personal chord with me - heard at the weekend that ex P (who always claimed to be against marriage in principle because he was an atheist and disliked the religious baggage that came with it) is getting married this spring! Now there were lots of reasons why I left him (long time ago now, so in the category of ancient history, and I have moved on and have a lovely child now - something else he claimed not to want), but I find the turn around interesting, and it confirms what I suspected at the time - that ultimately, it was me, not the institution, that was at the bottom of his reluctance to commit.

But (moving to hopefully more general experience) I think I agree with a lot of posters up thread. If you've only just raised the issue, then you can't yet tell which way it's going to go, but I'd like to contrast the experience of 3 female friends of mine (interesting that they're all female - parts of this thread have gone a bit "men, they're commitment-phobes" and I think the issue is more general and non-gender specific). All felt marriage was a meaningless piece of paper, albeit for different reasons. One because her parents' marriage had failed, so she didn't see how a piece of paper helped with commitment. She is deeply committed to her partner, they have two children and look set for the long-haul - crucially, because they both feel that way. One felt that way because again she felt commitment was either there or it wasn't, and a piece of paper couldn't help. But she knew it mattered deeply to her partner, and (as she put it), "well, if I claim it's a meaningless piece of paper and I really mean that, then it should be no skin off my nose to get it if it keeps my partner happy". They have one of the strongest marriages I've seen (have been through some really terrible life events together and have continued to support each other). The third spent 8 years with her partner - he wanted to get married, she didn't (for what seemed at the time to be sound reasons of principle - she objected to the patriarchal overtones of marriage and didn't want a Stepford-wives type marriage like her mother had endured). Fast forward a few years after their break-up - she is now happily married to someone else.

So I think there is no problem if neither of you wants marriage, but if one of you does and the other one doesn't after lengthy discussions about why it's so important, then I am inclined to agree with the interpretation that "it's not marriage they don't want, it's marriage to you". I reiterate though, that you're at early stages in working out its importance to you, so I don't think it's a deal breaker for you at the moment.

One clarification on stats - 50% of marriages split, but that doesn't mean 50% of married people end up divorced, because of multiple marriages. Where both partners are on their first time round (as far as I remember) the odds of a break-up are about 30%, rising to about 50% where one partner is on their second marriage, and higher than 50% where one partner is on their third.

Thanks for your post Lurcio I think sometimes with people settling down/marrying/having children, it's not just the person they're with, but it being the right time - what seems totally undesirable/without merit in your twenties suddenly starts to appeal much more in your thirties. DP and I have acknowledged many times that if we'd met a few years earlier, we would barely have spared each other a glance; it just wouldn't have been the right time for us to click. We change as we get older, and want different things, I think.

This thread, and exploring my reactions to the posts, have made me really look at what I feel about the issue. I do feel confident in his commitment to me and to us as a family, whatever his feelings about marriage might be. I also realise that I don't see marraige as an unconditional 'til death us do part' thing - more of a 'til death us do part as long as you continue to treat me with decency, love and integrity...' - my point being that it is not, and never would be I think, a deal-breaker.