..to think my family holiday shouldn't be hijacked by my BIL?...LONG alert!

[erebus]

This is just the need to rant.

DH is Australian. We (he, I, the DSs, 9 and 11) are taking our first hol to Oz since coming to the UK 7 years ago this Easter.

We have 2 days in Singapore, 2 days only in Sydney (slight booking cock up on the part of DH, which I didn't spot either!) then 11 days in then out of Brisbane, then 4 days in Cairns.

The BNE bit is to be a look around where we were based, show the boys around, catch up with old friends. BIL lives 3 hours north in a small, one horse town, where DH grew up (and left at 17...)

I don't get on well with BIL who is 8 years older than DH. I think he is a country oik with country ideas; he has never held down an adult relationship with a woman in his 58 years, he has never left the family home (parents died 10 years ago) YET there are few aspects of our lives he is not an expert about. DH chose to come and live in the UK. He likes it here, but because BIL cannot fathom why anyone would want to live anywhere else other than small town outback Australia, therefore it is to be understood that it is my 'fault' we no longer live in Oz.

BIL has been to visit us here in the UK twice. He spends 4 weeks slumped on our sofa watching 'Rex Hunt Fishing Adventures' (Oz fishing show) on Sky, making increasingly pointed 'asides' to me about why ANYONE would want to live in the UK? Sooner or later he and I fall out a bit. Never a row, just terse words and a difficult atmosphere.

DH has been taught all his life that his family (read: mother) are/were Central to everything, hence BIL never leaving home. Dissent was never allowed, a thing that still means DH has trouble with conflict today. He therefore has never plucked up the courage to tell BIL where the boundaries are. He just wants BIL and I to get on (which I would far better if he didn't see fit to comment on a) our relationship, b) our choice of living arrangements, c) our parenting, d) everything about the UK). But it isn't me who stirs things up! I don't give a toss what he thinks about us, it's just that I choose not to spend any more time with him than is strictly necessary. If he were just my kitchen fitter, I'd pass a polite half hour with him over a cup of tea as he gradually ranged into casual racism, we'd tacitly accept that we come from different walks of life, that would be that. DH knows how I feel (cos I told him!) though we don't, of course, actually discuss it but I have made my feelings clear, reminding DH that BIL and I will experience conflict sooner or later therefore expressing my wish to keep our holiday contact in short bursts, not one long slog. Whilst appreciating the familial responsibility of spending time with BIL....

So you can imagine my feelings when our time with him went from being staying with him for 4 or 5 days (one horse town, 2 sons, really expensive holiday, remember!) plus him coming to Cairns with us to him NOW spending all 11 days of the BNE bit with us PLUS Cairns. 16 days out of the 21 of the whole holiday.

He wanted to spend 'a day' with us on the Gold Coast (4 hours south of one-horse-town) to go to a 'light horse' show (£62 a head, yawn) with us, OK fair enough- so why has DH booked for him to stay in the same hotel as us for all 4 nights - following last night's weekly Skype with him? (And incidentally, thus far, paid for it? BIL is rolling, given that he inherited the family home and has never had to support a family). I can imagine the scenario, BIL would have casually mentioned that he 'wouldn't mind some time on the GC' so suddenly, all 4 days.

Sorry for all that, rant over, but I just knew that DH would somehow allow BIL- or not succeed in preventing him!- to invade every area of this holiday. I was wondering why the normally taciturn DH was being very friendly and chatty with me this morning, now I know why! He knows how I would react when I saw the hotel booking on line when I came downstairs (long rant on MN?! ). Now I will have to fit in around BIL, keep the boys on a higher standard of behaviour both when bored in One-horse-town and when wanting to go to the theme parks on the Gold Coast, at our own pace.

Rather pissed off.

I should also add, yet further in my defence of Rant Appropriateness, that BIL has no real relationship with the DSs. He likes the concept of them (we are his only immediate family, after all) but more or less ignores them when he comes to sit on our sofa in the UK. He has no point of contact with them at all (yet sees fit to put me straight on some parenting issues!).

YABU country oik? have a

You sound a snob, and I can see why your BIL finds you difficult tbh.

What would happen if you got on with your holiday as you wanted it to be? Go to the theme parks and tell bil that you'll all see him at the end of the day - basically present him with your plans as a fait accompli, rather than fitting in round him. Would dh back you up in preventing him from invading all areas of your holiday, even if he can't do it himself?

Would he back you up if you emailed bil with a polite request for him to send you money for the hotel deposit - because you are saving for an expensive holiday, and can't afford to bankroll him? If you stand up to bil right at the beginning of the holiday, is there a chance that he'd strop off home and leave you in peace?

You have all my sympathy - it sounds like a very difficult situation, and has the potential to make a wonderful holiday a lot less wonderful. I'm sorry I don't have any really useful advice, but I do hope you can get this sorted out and have a wonderful time.

In fairness to the OP, the bil lives in the country, and she knows him well enough to decide whether or not he is an oik.

He does sound pretty dreary, but I can see lots are going to come on and say you don't sound very nice.

If you want genuine advice, it's this:

Your BIL is not the problem, it's your DH. He knows how you feel but is booking time with his brother regardless. You're wasting a lot of emotion fuming about BIL when you need to communicate and reach agreement with your DH about what is a fair compromise.

I do think you are being slightly U. Have you considered that your BiL desperately wants a serious relationship but has been unlucky. Alternatively he may be gay but unable to tell people.
Could you and DH have slightly different holidays inasmuch DH goes to the light horese show but you and your DC don't?

You don't sound like a snob, he sounds like a wanker.
Good advice from SDTG.

it matters not if he is an oik or not, its her husbands brother - is he a bad influence on her husband? Does he encourage him to go drinking and womanising in the way only a country oik would do? Or does he just not measure up to the city slicker sophisticated OP?

Sunshine, are you Australian? I am and I think I know what erebus may be referring to when she says "country oik". Perhaps it was an unfortunate term to use but erebus is pissed off and may not be in a particularly diplomatic frame of mind!
There is, amongst some small Australian country town types a certain close minded attitude to anyone from the big cities, let alone other countries and cultures. I have met these people and they truly believe the centre of the universe is their local country community... Also some of the men are stuck in a 1950s time warp in regard to their distrust of women and foreigners... This may be what erebus is referring to?

I also would find this situation intolerable. Think that you need to have words with DH along the lines that all decisions re holiday plans need to be taken mutually between husband and wife, not brother and brother. My DH also has a particularly needy and demanding brother who would try to take over a family holiday if he was allowed. However I would be furious if this was allowed to occur via my DH's collusion and without any consultation with myself.

YANBU!

Does your husband like spending time with his brother?

Hmmm. I think your dh should have discussed this before booking. If you do end up having your bil along, why not just continue on with the theme parks and whatever else you have planned? He can either go with you or do something else.

Perhaps you guys could cut out the 4 days in the place you find boring and go to the GC sooner? That would free you from 2 of the days with you bil?
Bring along a single female to occupy bil?

Agree totally with YTTM

"Your BIL is not the problem, it's your DH. He knows how you feel but is booking time with his brother regardless. You're wasting a lot of emotion fuming about BIL when you need to communicate and reach agreement with your DH about what is a fair compromise."

My mum is similar. She loves the idea of the kids, but never does anything with them the rare time she does see the. Wall to wall photos, but never a phone call or a note. Basically, she just doesn't know how to be with them, and frankly can't be bothered. If he doesn't have any kids, he might well not have a clue, and frankly, being so old and single (living alone) he's almost inevitably going to be selfish, because on a day to day basis he just doesn't have to consider anyone else, or how his behaviour impacts on them, because it doesn't.

I guess you just need to decide what you want, and tell your dh what's ok and what isn't. And yes, it's an expensive holiday and a long way, but naturally the 2 brothers will want to see each other.

I agree that your husband is the unreasonable one in not discussing with you how to spend your holiday. I wouldn't book my family to stay with us without discussing this with my husband. He sounds as though he likes to be in control and is totally disregarding your opinions. He seems to feel it's his country so you should fall in line with his wishes and play the meek little wifey.
Get angry with him not your BIL.

I agree with those who have said that the real issue lies with your DH. Utterly unreasonable for him to change the plans without discussing with you. And if your H wanted to spend more time with his brother then fair enough - but when you have a family to consider you cannot make those decisions unilaterally.

Agree that the issue is really something that needs to be sorted and agreed between you and your DH.

Re country oik - I know what you mean, I know the type you are talking about, I am Aussie too and they do exist. The way she describes him sitting on her sofa watching Rex Hunt and spouting Briticisms (slagging off the UK, basically) is textbook!

1. Most husbands would not make changes like that without consulting you. Do you just give in to him lal the time and he walks all over you? Tell him he can't change plans without you and to undo the plans or you are not going.

1. And/or think great - brother in law can do lots of babysitting with the children whilst you and your husband have time together, romantic dinners out etc. Make the BIL work very hard.

1. Do what you choose and then your husband can babysit his brotehr perhaps with the children some of the timew hilst you lie in teh sun, have wonderful time totally alone. Thsi could be turned round to be an absolute god send to you. Just say right I can endure him for 2 hours on 5 days and ther est of the time I simply will not be with him - not need for you and your husband and chidlern to spend every minute together.

Yadnbu

Your dh is.

Your DH is definitely the problem. He needs to make a stand for you and your family.

16 days of your family holiday with someone you liked would be pushing it.

16 days out of a 21 family holiday, and without consultation, is outrageous. I would ask your DH to back-pedal on a good half of that (at least), and / or do your own thing with your CD, if your DH really wnats to spend time with his B. Which he may do. Leave them to catch up, and go to the theme parks. I assume you will have a hire car? Use the opportunity to take yourself off in it for a few days while your DH stays with BIL and uses his.

Lots to reflect on there, folks!

I am interested in the fact the 2 either Australians on here or those who know rural, small town Aussie culture know exactly what I'm talking about re: oik! It's not drinking and womanising, it's a deep seated belief that their own small town is the best in the world, but laced with a deep distrust of 'townies', foreigners (sorry, but especially those who aren't white. Sad but utterly true), gay people. And so on. Basically, anyone who isn't exactly like them. BIL is rabidly anti- 'abroad' and anything thereby represented! Fwiw, I lived in Australia for 15 years, too.

The ridiculous thing is, DH isn't that fussed about spending large tracts of time with his DB but I think DH would rather deal with my thin lipped disquiet at this stage (!) that his DB's 'upset'. It's a family who have been known to use silence as a weapon. But BIL won't countenance that us not wanting to spend every minute of our time with him could possibly be at the behest of his little brother: no, it must be that nasty wife again. And DH knows I will behave with polite decorum when in the company of BIL, right up to the point where I cannot stand the implication that I have lead poor little DH away from where he really belongs, in rural Australia any more! DH talks to his DB every week but the conversation turns to Aussie Rules footy within 3 or 4 minutes, every time. They really aren't that close. As for BIL desperately wanting a relationship, the issue there is (and I have this on the authority of cousins who were there!) BIL was effectively taught by his mother than no woman could ever be good enough for him. I bypassed the approval process by meeting DH long after he'd left the stifling confines of that town to go to uni!

The simple reality is that It Is Done but what I will do is to now insist we have 4 (expensive!) hotel days as a family after the GC trip, before we go to Cairns, maybe staying on the Sunshine Coast. Without BIL.

And yes, I am pretty irritated with DH for not discussing this with me, however, I am aware that me making a huge fuss could sound very infantile. DH won't 'get' the implications of this move like I do: Sure, we can split up for the day (though I will put money how few days it is when we do this before BIL takes DH aside to suggest he's come all the way down from Small-country-town thus we should stick together all the time!); DH will become stressed when we are still wandering down Mt Warning (BIL has already said 'it's not for him'!) and we're 'supposed' to be at a certain restaurant at 6pm, 'C'mon, c'MON, boys!', the 2 boys tired and needing a shower, BIL having wandered, a bit aimlessly, around a shopping centre all day (unless Rex Hunt is on! ). And I also know who will be cooking for us AND him in our apartment every night, unless we find the £60 odd it's going to cost for us to eat out.

In a non-patronising way, I do feel sorry for BIL. Most of his friends are actually his now deceased parents' friends (the 3 of them did EVERYTHING together), but he is in a far better financial situation than we are (he inherited the family home.. and has never paid board or lodging, let alone for a family in his life)- so could come here as often as he likes. But he has made it perfectly clear that as this is 'abroad' it's to be disliked and condemned at every stage- and has vowed never to come back! I went out of my way the first time (of 2) he visited here to line up English things to do, put him on the car insurance, introduced him to our friends. HE sat on the sofa watching TV, falling asleep at 7pm (which is what he does at home!), thought Stonehenge was boring, that the incredible culture and renaissance of the port of Barcelona into the thriving beach-side metropolis it now is- 'wasn't as good as Rainbow Beach'.

I really am ranting now, aren't I?

Sorry, my last rant was written whilst the last 4 or 5 posts came in.

Thing is, my DH is good bloke. He's not at all alpha (which is perhaps the problem!). He will take a 'What can you DO?' stance, complete with Jewish shrug and out-turned palms! In his mind, he will be assuming 'It'll all be OK', he knows I won't make a scene.

As for the 16 days, I had agree to Cairns and accepted we couldn't fly into BNE without spending several days based at BIL's, albeit an inconvenient few hours north of BNE! I thought Thurs eve to Mon a.m at BIL's, Mo-Thurs eve on the GC, then maybe back up to Small Town after that 'break', but daytripping alone doing things that don't involve BIL like visiting my friends on the Sunshine Coast, THEN facing Cairns with BIL. Cairns will be day trip after day trip. It is entirely up to BIL if he comes on them or not but I am taking no prisoners.

However, the 4 days on the GC appear to be the straw that inconvenienced the camel, don't they?!

He sounds a complete arse. Could you entertain yourself by baiting him and seeing how quickly you can get him to rise? Or would it be too predictable?

But I really would sit DH down and ask him what he thinks you and your DC are going to get out of this holiday, and make it his responsibility that you and DC ENJOY yourselves. And definitely no cooking for the BIL, the temptation to poison him because you've got plans for the next day would be just too much for me.

"he knows I won't make a scene."

Well there you are then. Make a scene. A humungous scene. Today.

YANBU and don't sound like a snob to me - blood is thicker than water approach is total bobbins and your BIL sounds like an utter pain in the backside. I would make my DH's life an utter misery if he did this to me

Agree best bet is to go off and have plenty of family times sans BIL - if your DH stresses out about not being around BIL all the time then leave them to it. Just make sure you and your DCs have a great holiday.