to hate it when people talk about "indie" schools

[gobehindabushfgs]

in an attempt to make it sound cool, edgy and alternative? it isn't. it's private education. it's a right-wing, ultimately selfish decision.

"indie"

And while I accept (to some extent) your theory that education is not a commodity, what about all those things which are utterly free?

Time, support, encouragement.

It could be said that these are the biggest factors giving children a leg up.
Any parent can give them.

How do we equalise those factors?

Or are you only interested in equalising rich children to the level of privilege you can give?

I have no idea about SEN provision or about your circumstances but I think you are saying you pay for education because 'the provision for your children is inadequate. I think it's a disgrace you were forced to pay, I think it's a disgrace that families who cannot pay are left with inadequate provision.

But it doesn't alter my opinion that private education is responsible for major social inequalities in this country.

The fact is that there us no reason for anyone who privately educates to get upset because you win

You are buying privilege. One day someone like Xenia may interview my DD for a job and maybe conclude she is from an inferior gene pool, her parents are lazy or she is likely to stab them- because she is state educated.
That is perhaps an over statement but this prejudices exist.

Exactly Normantebbit.

I wonder though, whether private schools are not the cause, but simply a reflection of our society.

I don't pretend to have an entirely consistent position on any of this. My musings at the moment are:

Education is a Good Thing

The state ought to provide excellent and appropriate provision for all, but in reality it never will.

Therefore, any parent who does anything to improve their child's education over and above what the state can do is doing a Good Thing.

If you spend time with your children, reading, doing times tables etc, good for you.

If SWC et al pay for specialist SN education, good for them.

If someone pays a tutor so that their dyslexic child learns to read, good for them.

If someone pays a private school because they are convinced their child will emerge better educated than whatever the state can offer, good for them. (If they do it to merely gain the illusion of a better education or 'contacts', yah booh sucks )

Abolishing faith schools would be a great idea too. I don't know where people have got the idea that I am anti-grammar. As I said above, I went to one, and it offered a good education on the whole (but would not have been right for someone not academically-inclined, hence I keep reiterating the fact that state provision doesn't mean "same for everyone").

I won't be drawn into any SEN debates - in my experience they are the equivalent of rigging a field with mines and then beckoning the unwary over.

I appreciate the Debating Society teaches you how to try and paint people into a corner, but I just swing from the ceiling.

OK the consequences of not having a two tier education system, if it really needs to be explained, would be that everyone would have the same opportunities to start with, regardless of their parents' wealth.

But they wouldn't unless you have a magic wand to wave to make all schools the same, and all intakes the same.

The nice area schools with lots of motivated parents (MC) would be better than the not so nice schools... why - apart from anything else (according to teacher friends is they are nicer to teach in...)

yes, mottledcat, and with that equal opportunity, dd1 would never have learnt to speak, dress herself, do anythign even remotely independent.

UQD - no land mines here.

I just ant to know whether you think my choosing a private SN school for dd1, for all the reasons outlined in a previous post - better education, more suited to her; nicer buildings, more qualified staff (for her needs); better range of extra curricular activities) is still wrong

I chose it for her, for the same reasons I chose dd2's private, MS, school.

because I thought it would give her a better education, all round.

is it any different because she is SN? or not?

should she too be taking her chances in MS?

because if not, and you think that I was right to choose the school that owuld actually teach her stuff, then how come I don't ge tthat right for dd2, in your opinion?

Jesus Christ SWC I wasn't talking about you (and you know that, I think)

Please don't misrepresent me to win your argument.

mottledcat puts it in a useful way - same opportunities to start with.

Or, to put it another way - given that society is riddled with so much inequality of opportunity already, why do people think it's a good idea to put in yet another one?

This is not to deny that people will buy, cajole, beg, borrow, swap, etc. other opportunities as they go along in life. It's just the next stage up after passing outgrown baby-clothes on or getting toys for free from older cousins. You can't really legislate for that. You could argue that you have a natural advantage if your mother is a French teacher (I got told that often enough...), or if you have books, or if your parents can string two words together.

I have a close friend who is an Oxford lecturer and is closely involved in the admissions procedure. You'd have to be mad to think that, in 7 years' time, I deliberately won't be picking his brains for the low-down on what, exactly, they are looking for these days when they interview a candidate (my own experience from the 80s probably won't be relevant). Does this matter? Discuss...

I have experience of arguing with smallwhitecat before and her tone was snide and unhelpful (it's started already) which is one of the reasons I am refusing to engage. My essential points stand.

UQD are don't understand your points, I've not really engaged in a discusion around private/state school before so forgive ne if they should be obvious to me:

"Almost everyone who supports private schools on here is doing one of two things, or both.

• equating education with a purchasable commodity like coal-fired central heating or organic vegetables. (I'm sorry if it annoys people that I keep saying this, so here's the deal - I'll stop when you do.) I don't understand the problem with discussing it as a commodity?

and/or

• equating a lack of "choice" or "options" with an automatic right to have an alternative which is available only at an exorbitant price. (And please don't insult my intelligence by trying to claim that it is "affordable".) It simply doesn't seem to occur to people that one does not automatically provide you with the other. Again I don't understand your point

Could you explain your points to me (simply!)

But there is still no answer to the glaring fact that abolishing the private sector would not bring about quality of provision in the state sector...
...Oh sorry, yes it would bring about equality for the middle classes. Which is what parents on here really mean by equality.

But, unless all schools are equal, you don't have the same opportunities.

I have no doubt that a great state school can excel; many do.

If you could get your child into a great state school, I'm sure most would.

The MC will move and buy a damn house next to the school. [My mum's house was worth about £35k more because of its excellent location not far from the local good school]

The not MC will do as they already do, suffer.
You've legislated and done? Zip.

OK, give places purely by lottery. Right, your next target is...

Brian - I thought I'd gone through it often enough. If I do so again I'll be accused of "banging on" by the usual suspects. Just read the whole thread, or one of the endless others on this topic...

Normantebbit Fri 18-Feb-11 17:31:03
Jesus Christ SWC I wasn't talking about you (and you know that, I think)

Please don't misrepresent me to win your argument.

Why aren't you talking about SWC though? Your post was talking about paying when SN issues were involved, that's SWC isn't it? So why doesn't your post apply to her?

My view point is not 'borne of jealousy' either.

Why would it be when my DCs have had an excellent state education and ended up in the same establishments as all those privately educated pupils.

You see?