to be sitting on the fence with regards to the sterilisation of this lady with learning disabilites

[tomhardyismydh]

My ethical judgment tells me this is very wrong, but my moral and practical understanding of this situation tells me it maybe in her best interest.

what are others views, wishing not for this thread to turn out to be a bun fight.

Im thinking about the absolute rights of this woman and any further children she may have.

what a stupid article, they dont say whats wrong ith her. theres a huge difference between having lost a leg and being unable to live unaided with a life span of 40 years.

In serious cases of disability i dont think you should be able to have children, but presumably in this situation the woman would have had her ability to make decisions taken away as she woul b mentally incapable anywhere, makeing the whole debate void.

Wellllllllllllll, I have a close friend who is raising her grandson.

His mum has learning difficulties, as result of meningitis as a baby.

When she got pregnant, her mum voiced concerns about her ability to cope as she couldn't even care for herself very well...which were ignored by ss, various problems were raised, baby not being stimulated, baby being underweight, repeated infected nappy rash because babies nappy wasn't being changed often enough. All concerns were ignored by ss.

Things came to a head when he was rushed into hospital aged 13 months , she'd overdosed him on paracetamol, because he'd been crying she thought he was ill and crushed two into a bottle.

She has been trying to get pregnant ever since, hopefully she never will. It's very sad all round.

Having said that many parents with sn do an excellent job, but sadly some don't

duchesse - they are proposing to tie her tubes during her CS so no additional surgery required.

I think this is a really difficult case but if this is her second pregnancy and she has no capacity to care for her children, then it isn't fair on future children to keep producing them. Sterilisation would at least mean that she can continue to be allowed a degree of freedom to pursue her sexual desires.

Knittedbreast, it doesn't matter what is wrong with her, she is incapably of raising a child.
Whether she is capable of consenting to intercourse is a seperate thing.
The sterilisation wouldn't carry any further risk, IIUC, she is to have her tubes ligated at the same time she has a caesarian.

I do agree with tomhardy, yes ethically it's wrong, you need to put the Childs and any future child needs first. Like one mum said who has a child with learning disabilities, they are physically capable of having chldren but not always the mental capacity to look after that child and to meet it's needs. Long term contraception should be tried first, then as a last resort sterilisation

I am playing Devil's Advocate here:

So if this lady is in capable of raising a child - she is sterilised.

Is an alcoholic capable of raising a child?

Is a drug addict capable of raising a child?

What about someone with mental illness or terminal physical illness?

What about someone who has no job/home/income?

In the above cases social services step in (as I understand it) but unless I am under-informed - there is never the proposal that she should be sterilised is there?

I suppose the difference is that alcoholics and drug addicts have the capacity for change (I know former heroin addicts and alcoholics who are good parents and have been clean/teetotal for years).

Someone with severe LD isn't going to get better

kreecher what do you mean? what i meant was how do we know she is incapable of raising a child? the article dousnt say whats wrong- i wouldnt trust the daily mails articles.

I think in those cases oops the alcoholic and drug addict are potentially able to recover. Presumably someone with serious learning difficulties isn't?

I do feel so sorry for her mother having to pick up the pieces - what on earth will she tell the children. How do you explain that your mum has (presumably severe) learning disabilities? When the grandmother has died will the children end up having to look after their mother? all round.

DD has severe learning disabilities and will always have the mental capacity of a child.

I am not sure about sterilisation but hope when she gets older she can have a long term contraceptive implant.

There is no way she would have capacity to care for a child (or consent to sex for that matter).

Learning difficulties span a huge spectrum of capacity. It includes people who just have a low IQ but who can still hold down a job, tell the time, know what day it is, understand money, follow instructions etc. to those who have very limited capacity, are non-verbal and may also have physical disabilities.

Many adults with mild LD's are capable of consenting to sex and do have relationships. Others are really not. It's a difficult area because they are adults, the usually do have sexual urges, but lack the capacity to deal with them.

There are quite a lot of parents with mild LD's who do keep their children with support from the LA but obviously in some cases this is just not in the best interest of either the child or the parent.

It's sad and difficult to judge without actually meeting the woman concerned, but it may well be the best course of action.

Knitted, it is reported on other sites too, I just happened to be checking out the showbiz gossip looking at the news on the DM.

I am firmly in favour of sterilisation.

It takes away the risk of pregnancy and the responsibility of contraception, whilst still allowing her the sex life that she clearly wants.

oh i see kreecher lol, daily mail though? really? im shaking my head at you.

im sure i read an article once that said that in sweden the carers of the disabled help with the masturbation of adults. it was a long time ago, but imagine that being part of your job description!

The woman may have the body of an adult, but her mental age could be that of a 5 year old.

Would a five year old be capable of caring responsibly for a child and would it be fair on that child. No.

Sterilisation really is the only option I am afraid.

Independent link

It's her mum asking for the sterilisation, she is the one looking after the grandkids and can't cope with any more.

Also, the C-section is today apparently and the court hasn't ruled yet, so they can't take the easier option of doing the ligation at the same time.

What I do wonder though, if her learning difficulties are so severe, why is this woman allowed to get herself into a situation that enables her to get pregnant? Surely she should not be out unaccompanied? And what about the father of these children. What sort of man sleeps with a woman who has severe learning difficulties?

I'm with oops, it's a where do you draw the line thing.

Under what circs is she getting pregnant? Where is the father in this?

x-post, squeaky

Also, I think she is having a CS because she is deemed incapable of understanding the birth process, and would be too traumatised by the experience to go through it. I would have thought this would mean that she has quite severe learning dificulties. But like others have said, who has got her pregnant twice, apparently in quick succession? Are there people just taking advantage of her? What has happened to them? Surely they should also be dealt with?

Actually, it puts me in mind of that american woman who wanted to pay drug addicts to be sterilised. Doesn't sit easy with me at all.

I think because there is an urgency involved in this case because the birth of this child is imminent that perhaps they will deal with the matter of how the pregnancies are occurring later.

I hope it is because the lady is finding some happiness with an innocent man in her peer group who does not understand the consequences of his actions either.

The idea of a devious creep preying on a vulnerable woman is just vile.

I hope she gets the protection she needs.

x post again!

isnt there a high level of sex between disabled people anyway? i wouldnt imagine (waiting to get shot) that many non disabled men would have intercourse with someone of that level of disability anyway.

im also wondering how you can give consent to sex if you are that disabled in the first place, unless this is vetoed if both parties are in a similar situation

Totally agree with everything squeaky has said.