To think it is not poverty to blame.

[goneanddoneitnow]

I see in the news poverty being blamed for childrens bad behaviour and under achievement as well as for health problems.
I think it is attitudes that need changing not income.
If attitudes could be changed through education of parents and students then I think you would find that income and health will improve as a result.
If children are reaching school unable to sit still, listen, share etc, without basic skills and knowledge then what are the parents doing?
And secondly what is the point of free nursery places from age three?
Shouldn't nurseries be preparing children for school?
The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they them selves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge.
How many times have you seen big lottery winners lose it all in a few years?

some poverty caused by laziness. Expecting everyone else to do it all. Minimum input into rearing of children,not pushing homework,poor discipline etc.

So what? Parental poverty causes laziness. Of course in some cases it does. But what does that mean for the children? Does that mean because the parents 'deserve' the poverty that their offspring should just suck it up?

And of course poverty is relative.

Sorry! I meant 'parental laziness causes poverty'

A1980, people in this country might not be living on a dollar a day however poverty still exists. And 'being poor' denies people access to decent housing, decent nutrition and aspiration.

I work with 'poor children' and I can assure you that their lifestyle is not one that any sane person would dream of.

And why is it so important to beleive that poor people deserve it? Why so hard to accept that maybe some, or most of them, would like not to be in this situation and need help to deal with it? Are we really so hard-nosed that we'd rather just leave them to it so find excuses not to bother?

Yes, some people find their own way out, but lots don't. Because some people are stronger and more determined, it doesn't mean the others are lazy and weak.

A1980 I've worked with families in Bristol that didn't have:

• a roof over their heads
• enough money to feed or clothe themselves

that to me is poverty.

Oh, and for the record many of these families were white, British and didn't have substance abuse problems. Just victims of circumstances and the various Catch22s of the welfare system.

My brother and I grew up in 'poverty' not through lack of funds but due to my mother's reckless spending She wanted a champangne lifestyle on an orange juice budget.

My mother worked full time and we hardly saw Dad as he was doing the same and even more hours on top. My brother and I had numerous 'jobs' after school.

After school at the age of nine and ten;

We had to make the lunch packs for the entire family for the next day

Take the dog for a walk lasting at least an hour

Vacuum

Dust

Start dinner, peeling and chopping veg etc

I would bake bread, cakes, biscuits

On Sundays I had to polish the shoes for the family and take my bath - I was the last one in and I had to clean it afterwards.

I scrubbed floors with a scrubbing brush and hand brushed the stair carpet with a stiff brush.

That was when I was nine years old. We had no bloody money because Mum spent it all on clothes and make up.

My friends' kids are not asked to do anything around the house - I am not sure if that is right either. Give kids some responsibility and make them save for the things they want. They will appreciate those things so much more and care for them.

I don't care if you are rich or poor - make sure your kids know the value of possesions and how much effort it took to earn them.

I worked as a child for nothing - next time your child bemoans the fact they do not have the latest IPhone - make them work for it and do not hand it to them on a plate.

longwalk that's great. those parents are doing a fantastic job and should be applauded and also supported.

But don't you agree that those kids will, in the long run, have fewer opportunities? whether it's the school trip that is beyond the families budget or the lack of a parent to help with homework because they are working the evening shift to put food on the table? That's why we need youth clubs and community outreach to help provide what the parents can't - opportunities.

It always makes me laugh when people/media/politicians blames being poor as a reason for not doing/achieving anything or being badly behaved or bad mannered.

My parents were poor and I mean very poor - my mother lived in a rented room which she lived in, with her 3 sisters in one bed and her parents in the other. My dads father gambled away any money they had. But both my grandmothers were proud, strict and full of backbone and my parents were brought with manners, courtesy and aspirational, with a strong work ethic. They became successful and that ethic has been passed onto myself and my siblings who are proving to be even more successful.

I put all our success down to good parenting and this is important whether you're rich, middle class or poor. It is bloody hard work getting parenting right - I have now 3 of my own and its the hardest job in the world. It takes alot of unconditional love, selflessness, care, discipline and structure to have a content child who feels they are loved & cared for, have good self-esteem through having their achievements reckonised and have respect for others.

I don't pretend to be the best parent and I have made many mistakes BUT at least I keep trying.I don't blame anything or anybody for it but myself/husband and neither did my mother or my grandmothers with all our various degrees of poverty and wealth.

Now for the backlash!!

that's fantastic goodkate, well done on your grandparents and parents. What I (and I think others) are taking issue with here is the OP seems to be suggesting that poverty plays no role in:

• behavioural issues
• health issues
• achievement and expectation

when all the evidence of many thousands of medical and social studies points to the opposite.

Of course they have fewer opportunities than, say, my kids. But their parents are giving them a sense of worth and dignity. That costs nothing.

We support them greatly. I make sure they know that at primary level, if they don't have the money to pay towards the school trip they need to say so. School cannot refuse their child a place due to non-payment. Many of the parents I work with are not aware of this.

But then we also give them info on free museums and help with transport there. We try to encourage them to take their child to the local library etc. It's a huge irony that the libraries that people are fighting to keep open are in middle class areas when those are are truly vital are in areas like the ones I work in every day. Nobody is fighting to keep those open.

It is worrying and frustrating because those families who are desperate for their kids to escape the cycle are so dependent upon servicers like local libraries etc.

In our LA, not only will these libraries form part of the cuts but also grants for transport to the museums and larger parks. People not working in my environment daily have no understanding how much these cuts will affect those parents who wish better for their kids.

I guess what my story (growing up in Easterhouse) and that og Goodkate shows is that parents like ours, however poor can make the difference.
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/22/article-0-0240567C0000044D-519_468x305.jpg&imgrefurl=www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1079715/The-atlas-death-Study-shows-living-right-place-prolong-life-14-years.html&usg=__9eyR8SBQPUsbSkacK0vVZo7i-3k=&h=305&w=468&sz=47&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=luxH4Mfs1EXDpM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=189&ei=pending&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deasterhouse%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7ACPW_enGB402GB403%26biw%3D1201%26bih%3D654%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=424&oei=3SdYTdKON8yFhQf3tJHPDA&page=2&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:15&tx=120&ty=59" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Easterhouse

I work with families in poverty and also very low incomes and it shocks me how much effort the parents put into their children, they make story sacks, cook with them, do several arts and crafts activities a day, take them for a walk every day and much more, I can think of very fewof my middle class friends that go to the same effort!!! Also at local tennis club, where you'll find that all the wealthy parents live, I am equally shocked how every time I'm there parents ignore their children, usually one child goes missing (aged 3 most the time) and at the horrific things that come out of their darlings mouths. I used to keep up with middle class families but would say I now fall very much into the low income families, and have to say all the newmums I know do a lot more with their children. Very long winded but want to say that being poor does not mean you do not spend time on your child's education or manners. Unfortunately it does mean you have to send your children to the local, incompetent school and can not afford to buy your child so many resources...

MrIC - thank you!

We should look upon poverty as a reason not an excuse and by that I mean a reason to encourage those in it to improve their lives not as an excuse to do nothing.

I am extremely fortunate to have been given the work ethic I have and the as a consequence the standard of living I now have. My children started life in better circumstances than either I or my parents did.

Despite our comfort I still want to give them a strong sense of self-discipline, achievement and self-esteem that I have. So they each have daily jobs to earn pocket money - my daughter cooked dinner tonight - which was delicious! She wants driving lessons and a car and despite the fact I can afford to give her both, I've told her if she wants that then she can get a job and earn the money to pay for it herself. It may seem harsh but just think how good she'll feel when she achieves it!

If people feel good about their own achievements, no matter how small, then we are all on a winner.

Not read whole thread so apols if repeating, but wanted to add my 2p:

There is a very unpleasant moral dimension to the current narrative as put forward by government: You are poor, therefore by definition you are lazy, feckless and bad. And so are your bratty feral children.

Yet we have no safety nets: no decent semi-skilled or unskilled work which is secure and has the backing of union to ensure decent t and cs. It is very difficult to feel a sense of pride, or be able to provide for a family under such circumstances. (Suzanne Moore make s the point in yeaterdays Graun: women(she says) prefer not to have to support children AND out of work and aimless male so choose to go it alone, with all the moral outrage that invokes re: single parents)

We have sink estates and sink schools, where the 'critical mass' of poverty of aspirations is overwhelming. But if there were more 'mixed' areas of council housing available to all,more investment in social infrastructure (sure start being a good example) and crucially, more equal distribution of waelth (via work or welfare), these vortexes of poverty could be eradicated.

At the end of the day, downward redistribution of wealth helps everybody, and helps economic growth by giving the poor more spending power.

my husband was brought up in poverty in a deprived area. Was it this or something else that made his mother smoke and probably gave him and his brothr asthma? at face value you couldn't say lack of money made someone smoke as its quite an expensive hobby.

as i understand it the medical profession blames the poor health in low income areas on the high levels of smoking. if they had more money would they smoke more or give up????

Really good posts on here;

"What I (and I think others) are taking issue with here is the OP seems to be suggesting that poverty plays no role in:

• behavioural issues
• health issues
• achievement and expectation

when all the evidence of many thousands of medical and social studies points to the opposite."

"we have no safety nets: no decent semi-skilled or unskilled work which is secure and has the backing of union to ensure decent t and cs. It is very difficult to feel a sense of pride, or be able to provide for a family under such circumstances."

As for the smoking that was mentioned, you do know that, medically speaking, its more difficult to quit than crack cocaine and heroin dont you?

Interesting q Dreaming. IMO poor smokers smoke for the same reason poor people fill their chn up with junk food: instant gratification in a world which denies them access to other means of same. A crafty cig could be the only 'me time' or 'alone time' a harrassed and stressed person in poverty ever gets. It breaks up and measures the day, it's a 'treat' and an indulgence.

Its not only the poor people that smoke

It makes me laugh how poor people are seen as a different race on here sometimes

It's the current government discourse around poverty which characterises them as such, usual. A lazy bunch of wasters with only theirselves to blame for not 'pulling themselves up by the bootstraps and making the most of this land of opportunity' Not a surprise that that is reflected on here.

The UK is massively overpopulated to the point that we cannot possibly all be rich. There will always be layers of wealth and the thickest layer will always be the poorest one.

I resent the OP's insinuation that if you aren't wealthy you're a lazy ignorant cunt with shit parents.

MN all over this is.

Perhaps some people might like to look at this:

www.equalitytrust.org.uk/

I'm posting this in response to Sakura's post some way further back (at 12.09) in which she said:

"of course poverty is to blame. I live in Japan, the country with the lowest crime rate in the world. And it's not a coincidence that it has the smallest gap between rich and poor in the world either"

I think this is such an important point... 'The poor' are not a separate species, for goodness sake, but to read some of the posts on here you might imagine they were...

I went to collect my ds from our local town at 4.30 last Friday. In front of 2 traffic wardens a few local lads (Y8??) stood right in front of my car so I couldn't continue. They then flicked cigarette ash all over my car. This is an underclass. I do not believe these children are parented properly. Some schools in our area certainly don't pick up on all bad behaviour. I despair. Luckily I live 10 miles out of this dump (Ashford), but as someone who has lived and taught in some of the toughest S London suburbs, this is the most depressing place I have ever been to or taught in. There is real social deprivation here, and it will take more than money to sort it. Cuts to Surestart are the last things we need round here.

The government berating the poor and unemployed, while sacking hundreds of thousands of public sector workers and encouraging everyone to work for free (how has that ever helped anyone out of poverty?)

Oh yeah, and the government themselves are a bunch of millionaires. Serves us right for electing them I suppose, as usual they will say its all our own fault.