To think it is not poverty to blame.

[goneanddoneitnow]

I see in the news poverty being blamed for childrens bad behaviour and under achievement as well as for health problems.
I think it is attitudes that need changing not income.
If attitudes could be changed through education of parents and students then I think you would find that income and health will improve as a result.
If children are reaching school unable to sit still, listen, share etc, without basic skills and knowledge then what are the parents doing?
And secondly what is the point of free nursery places from age three?
Shouldn't nurseries be preparing children for school?
The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they them selves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge.
How many times have you seen big lottery winners lose it all in a few years?

My uncle's a millionaire - started off as a teacher but ended up turning a hobby into a business. I wouldn't say he's noticeably a better parent (or husband) than my father (who is reasonably successful himself but not rich). Both have their faults.

Right-wingers would probably approve of my Uncle's 40 year old marriage compared to my Dad's two divorces. What they wouldn't see is that my Uncle had a series of affairs. At least my Dad's divorces were honest!

Certainly my three cousins have all dropped out of/didn't go to university and have all ended up working for their father.

I don't think that all kids should go down the university route ..but what else is there? vocational courses are still sneered at and many parents(not me) think that the teenagers doing them are a failure .youth unemployment is extremely high atm and there are no real apprenticeships any more

Jobs, working for a living, gaining experience in real life situations, working with grown ups who have responsibilities as opposed to students with a subsidised bar and too much time on their hands.

Very few jobs "need" a degree. Obviously Law, Medicine, Architecture...but forget Media Studies and Sports Science, get out there and get employed in your chosen field

i do actually agree with the op in principle. i think certainly when talking about the underclass there is predominant culture which no one will admit, certainly not on a forum like this.

however when it comes to money - money is needed, indeedy - becuase it will take monumental investment in the people of this country to change certain norms and behaviours.

We're keeping our children younger for longer than ever before. By the time they've had a gap year and finished university they could be 22! I'd bought and sold 2 houses by then, worked for 3 companies. Been running my own cars and managing my own household budget. I look at 17 year olds these days and find rather a lot of them immature and ineffectual.

They are crying out for responsibility and we're denying them.

I appear to have drifted from the original topic! #Beeinbonnett!

Sometimes University is the only option. My DD has to create a career for herself, one in which she is boss, choosing her working hours and a place of work that is adpted to her needs.
In order to get that she has had to go to university, she is unemployable, it would take a very compassionate understanding employer to take her on and there are not that many around.

She is not a layabout, she knuckles down and works very hard, as she knows she has to to make a difference to her life, going out on the piss is a treat and is certainly not the norm for her.

"We're keeping our children younger for longer than ever before."

I agree with that comment - and it makes me really sad, when I compare it to the idea that at the very same time we are also expecting them to grow up too quickly! In terms of sexualising girls etc. How on earth are children/teens supposed to know whether they're coming or going? :(

It's like a particularly fucked up Venn Diagram.

According to OP "The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they them selves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge."

There is a lot of family wealth in this country that comes from backgrounds of slavery & exploitation & your OP does seem to refer to this as opposed to the admirable people who manage to aquire a good standard of living through hard work.

In relation to inherited/ family wealth I do disagree with you. Past generations of my family worked damn hard in wealthy peoples factories & workhouses; Great grandma lost use of her arm as a 4 year old from being sent under the cotton looms to untangle something in the factory she worked in; is THAT putting enough effort in?!

I like to remind my kids how lucky they are that they haven't been born poor so that they don't develop a superiority complex in later life.

alouiseg. you need a degree if you want a vocational qualification. some careeers you can 'work your way up' - which i think is a good life experience in itself but i dont think you can dismiss university altogether. you sound a bit bitter about it. also qualifications at least provide something to fall back on whereas just experiemnce doesn't necessarily.

meanwhile in response to the op and comparisoms to earlier generation's poverty.....yes there have been previous generations far poorer in cash than this but i reckon they were more asset rich, especially post ww2 when the country had developed all sorts of coping skills to make money stretch. in the past families were passing down the skills to run a home, cook healthily and budget efficiently. communities were much more tight knit and responsible for eachother. poverty today is a different experience i think and often means very bad and unstable housing, lack of local support networks, lack of access to services diminishing all the time, poor domestic skills, high crime and unsafe environments to raise children. the unstable housing issue is getting worse at the moment because social housing is so difficult to get and housing associations are such cowboys.

relative poverty in the uk is a more self perpetuating cycle than ever

If poverty is caused by the poor, if being poor is some kind of moral failing and being well off is down to being a good person, then how come the gap between rich and poor has grown so rapidly over the past 30 years? Human nature doesn't change that quickly. If poverty was a moral failing, and wealth a virtue, then you'd expect the gap between rich and poor to be pretty consistent.

"The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they them selves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge."

Round here the majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of drug dealing, prostitution and crime. Their kids aren't any less ignorant.

Alouiseg I know this is a serious topic but that analogy made me LOL :o

Adversecamber the OP grew up in a deprived area, went to school with kids of gang members and drug dealers. Half the high school was pissed or high!
I was determined not to live my parents life.
I worked full time in a revolting job while I studied so I wouldn't have a debt.
No holidays, treats, tv or other little luxuries until I could aford them without borrowing.
It rankles that when outsiders see my lifestyle they say aren't you lucky.
Yes I am, lucky I had the drive to get what I want myself inspite of my impoverished childhood.
Somehow we need to give the children of today that drive.
I would like to see university fees refunded to students that pass their course.

Sungirltan, I am far from bitter! I just wish that University wasn't seen as the route to Everything when clearly it's not.

We have a higher percentage of University entrants than ever before and in lots of cases it's just inappropriate.

Starting off as a runner at a TV station will be far better for your career than a degree in Media Communications. There are just too many made up courses now. For example, Journalism! Decent journalists do not have a degree in Journalism, they are far more likely to have a degree in English.

A Nursing degree is now compulsory but there is no substitute for ward experience and caring. I've lost count of the amount of anecdotes from ward sisters who welcome in newly qualified Nurses with degrees who cant face cleaning up vomit or unblocking a constipated old man. By emphasising the academic we are over looking the practical.

Actually there are plenty of decent and successful journalists who have degrees in journalism. And English isn't a necessary degree for a would-be journalist - it's fine but doing science would make you stand out as a prospective employee (and it would be a jolly good thing if there was more scientific literacy amongst journalists).

Journalism doesn't need to be a three year course, the ideal would be to have a one year course rather like a pgce on top of your chosen field.

Totally agree about scientific journalists.

actually i just met a girl with a journalism degree. she has been working on lacal papers for the last 5 years and has just got a job at the bbc. she has managed to forge this career in plymouth, let alone london. afaik she's been working consistantly since graduating. an ex of mine has a media degree and writes for the guardian, is a regular on newsnight, has had a book published and owns a big house in notting hill. my uni housemate did politics and media. she does pr after working at the house of commons for years. she earns £50k plus :-) media at uni wouldn't interest me but it is an enourmous ever expanding industry wehre there is cash to be made!

one of my best friends has a nursing degree and has been in a and e doing a very demanding job since graduating.

on the other hand you dont need a degree to be a plumber. you need a plumbing qualification (city and guilds? i dunno. vocational qulifications are really important as well as academic ones.

with my kids it will be qualifications i encourage

Jolly good :o

alouiseg - there are one year courses for graduates as in your PGCE example, as well as degrees. Many of the universities now offering media studies degrees originally offered the one year courses but expanded into undergraduate teaching too.

I have a media studies degree (from the university which invented them) and quite a successful career in journalism. The course covered the content of the NCTJ, the standard vocational qualification for print journalists but obviously went far beyond that. All the people from my course are working in journalism or related fields - bar those who eventually decided to work in different industries.

I don't recommend ANYONE goes into journalism - especially not the print variety.

I wish people would stop saying that there is no poverty in the UK.

There is poverty in EVERY country in the world, be it a rich country or a developing country. Poverty is relevant to what is considered rich in a specific country.

Back to the original topic, YANBU about poverty being to blame for poor parenting. You can be poor and instill your children with good morals and values, as they cost nothing.

It's a certain group of society who seem not to be able to understand this, and they need educating for the sake of their offspring.

Edam I expect you did your course a fair few years ago? Do ypu think that the quality of candidates is as high now?

I think you've gone wrong with your understanding of "poverty" it's not just about £££'s on your pocket/bank

" poverty is defined "as the total absence of opportunities, accompanied by high levels of undernourishment, hunger, illiteracy, lack of education, physical and mental ailments, emotional and social instability, unhappiness, sorrow and hopelessness for the future. Poverty is also characterized by a chronic shortage of economic, social and political participation, relegating individuals to exclusion as social beings, preventing access to the benefits of economic and social development and thereby limiting their cultural development." (UN)