To think that grammar schools should limit the number of places available to private school kids

[reallytired]

Many grammer schools are over loaded with private school kids. Bright state school kids just can not compete. It is a massive advantage being in a class of 8 with specialist teachers and no SEN kids.

I think that the number of places for privately educated kid should be limited to the percentage of private school kids in the area. Ie. if 10% of kids in a town go to private school then 10% of places should be reserved for private school kids and 90% of places should be for everyone else.

It would then give poor state school families a chance. My son got mostly level 3s at his key stage 1 SATS and is on the top table in his class for every subject, but his school does not think he would get a place at the only grammar in the area. Its crazy. Its no wonder that social mobility is at an all time low.

What I mean is, I don't suppose they mind at all if parents coach and tutor.

It shows committment on their part (which they hope will continue) and willingness of the part of the pupil.

And since no amount of tutoring will enable some children to pass the test, I suspect it all comes out in the round.

Bright enough children, with the willingness to apply themselves and parents engaged at a high level will do the trick just as easily as filling the schools with the absolute brightest of the bright.

When I asked DD's current HT how she chose which girls she offered places to she told me that it absolutely was not based on who came top in the tests.

This I believe as DD got a place whereas a brighter friend did not.

She looked at the trst scores, the report of their primary/prep HT and interviewd both the girl and their parents.

She weeded out from that lot who she thought would fair best at her school.
It's a process that has worked for her for many many years.

isuspect the grammar schools feel the same. Their method of selection is working out just fine for them.

I thought state schools didn't interview specifically to prevent them selecting parents.

litchick "What I mean is, I don't suppose they mind at all if parents coach and tutor.
"

In the info supplied from grammars in birmingham the schools/foundation advise against coaching/tuition they stress the point that actually attending the schools is rigorous and that the focus should be on whether your child can cope with that.

My daughters attend the grammar schools and have coped with the intensive pace of work. My DS is at a 'sink' comp. He is in top sets and doing well...he could have been coached to pass the 11+ but he would not have coped with the pace of work and being rather an emotional boy the constant emphasis on 'perfection' would have sent him round the bend.

Both of my daughters have been in positions where friends of theirs who were coached/attended private feeders have not been able to cope with the academic pace and have leaned on them for support.

GS's should select on merit only, but the notion of 'merit' is currently rather skewed. Buying the ability to pass a test does not mean that kids are GS material. I work with a few kids who I would consider to be GS material...but due to factors out of their control they will never pass the 11+ and I think that's really sad.

It's not that bullying doesn't happen at private school, we recently had a huge issue with a teacher doing something they would never get away with at state school, the point is though at private they actually do something about it and follow through the punishments rather than blame the victim for being in the wrong place or having a funny looking face, both of which I've read on mumsnet as the teachers response when faced with bullies.

Yup. If only there was a magic way to discern the children who would, simply, most benefit from being at the school.

alistron it may say that in the literature, yet these schools do nothing to discourage tutoring.
They could for instance, make their tests much harder. If lots of kids are getting near enough 100%, then they are not hard enough if you are selecting purely on academic ability.

As I say, I don't think they do want to select purely on academic ability and wouldn't be surprised if they saw tutoring as a crude way of measuring parental committment.

If the schools were full of all these over tutored flounderers they'd make a change in the selcetion process.

As it is they are content with a mixture of bright, bright enough, with healthy dollops of hard work and parental support.

Fail to see how anyone can argue with what Alistron is saying .

If grammar schools must still exist (I'd prefer them to go and our entire state system to be massively improved but realise that's unrealistic) then I think the entrance criteria should be beyond the simple passing of a test.

Because, as has been shown, throw money at it and anyone can pass the test.

"Parents can be engaged in education, but there is a limit to how much resources a single mother on a low income can give."

You do know that people who are married and have jobs also send their children to State School don't you?

OP, you really haven't got a clue at how private schools work? What do you mean the kids are spoonfed? Surely, this contradicts your other stereotype view that private school kids are 'pushed'.

Private schools will not magically transform every child to be 'bright' you know.

Not every private school kid goes to to grammar school.

There can be problems for pupils who are significantly off the pace at GS in terms of their self-esteem. There is a correlation between SATs scores at KS2 of 3 or low 4 but coached to pass 11+ & then that intensive input at home drops away. But equally there are stats that show that the VA for students at GS is greater than that at comprehensive, and that's what parents hope GS will give their child.

"You do know that people who are married and have jobs also send their children to State School don't you?"

I am happily married and my son goes to a state school. Plenty of people aren't and many find life tough.

"What do you mean the kids are spoonfed? Surely, this contradicts your other stereotype view that private school kids are 'pushed'. "

I think that spoonfeeding is a form of pushing. The children are in small classes with lots of attention.

At the private school I went to all hell broke loose if a child decided not to work. In a state school there is not the resources to nag push the lazy child.

It's a rum do and no mistake

reallytired - because, I suspect the grammar schools do not want the lazy, no matter how bright, they are content wiht the tutoring system which allows less bright pupils who are willing to graft to get in.

It's a rum do and no mistake

It would save so much time if Hully would just get in at the start of every thread and say that

litchick the grammar foundation I am familiar with says in big bold letters in its literature that they discourage tutoring/coaching... and this is because of the pace of GS life.

I do still think though that in an ideal world there would be no selection (on merit or economically) at all. But I am a total hypocrite 'cos I have 2 kids at a GS and would probably go private if I could given the current educational circumstances in the UK at the moment.

Hopefully you are also aware that single mothers send their children to private schools.

YANBU to deny a child a school place because of choices his parents have made.
I hate to break it to you, but life isn't fair, and these sorts of ideas do nothing to make it so. Bring this rule in, and suddenly the good state primaries will be full of kids who would have gone private, and you find you are even less likely to get your child into the decent primary of your choice. How will that help?

My son is in a decent primary. It has an excellent OFSTED report and my son is doing really well academically. The state primary is in spitting distance of my house.

When you have a popular school there will always be children who are denied places. I agree life is never fair.

What I am suggesting is a change to the selection criteria of STATE grammar schools so that they are open to the brightest children rather than the best prepared.

Ofcourse many private school parents do not like my ideas. They want want it be possible to select children by the means to pay for private education or tutoring.

It is crazy that in some parts of the country like Kingston-Upon-Thames a gifted child from a low income family would stand more chance of getting a scholarship to a private secondary than getting into the local grammar. (Ie. Tiffins!)

alistron1 I agree schools tackle it on a daily basis (no offense intended for the schools themselves - DH and I both work in education) and wasn't referring to them - meant politicians - clearly it's NOT a vote winner to tell people they need to do better..., policy makers - again a very unpopular theme, PARENTS (who often seem completely unable to accept any form of criticism at all) et al.

Schools IMO do an incredible job especially considering some of the material that gets sent into them. I am not holding the younger children responsible, but the parents...

Maybe the solution is to have MORE grammar schools, as there were when it enabled a lot more social mobility, then test all children, don't make the test optional and accept that even within the comprehensive system, there is at least a two tier system.

I don't know of a single comp that doesn't stream - surely this is just grammar by stealth and therefore why don't we all grow up, accept that some children are academic and some are not and that perhaps we should be providing appropriate schools with sufficient places for ALL children, despite their various talents.

reallytired:

What about the 'best prepared' children who have gone to state schools?

Lets face it, you have a thing against private schools (fair do's) but don't let that misguide you.

OOhh and to get over the

'oh I cannot accept that my child is not the most academic in the world, it's not fair that all children are different and have differeing talents and abilities, so NO child should have selective schooling or get the opportunity to thrive in an academicvally focused environment' parents, you could make it a pass to get into the secondary modern/non-grammar option, rather than a pass to get into the grammar option. Therefore aleviating all the anxiety about who is and isn't the so - called 'best'

Or we could invest as a society, a little bit more in educating PARENTS and no longer accept all the excuses for poor parenting and have really high standards and expectations for all children, not just 5 A-C's.

Sorry - rubbish spelling am on a work break ATM, clearly need to slow down the typing...

Sorry, coming in late to this, and live in Scotland. But, seriously, the 11+ still exists? Really? I am horrified. It caused so much damage to so many I know, - I was thankfully too young. I take it that it just in the private sector. Is there still such a thing as the 'Secondary modern'????