To think that grammar schools should limit the number of places available to private school kids

[reallytired]

Many grammer schools are over loaded with private school kids. Bright state school kids just can not compete. It is a massive advantage being in a class of 8 with specialist teachers and no SEN kids.

I think that the number of places for privately educated kid should be limited to the percentage of private school kids in the area. Ie. if 10% of kids in a town go to private school then 10% of places should be reserved for private school kids and 90% of places should be for everyone else.

It would then give poor state school families a chance. My son got mostly level 3s at his key stage 1 SATS and is on the top table in his class for every subject, but his school does not think he would get a place at the only grammar in the area. Its crazy. Its no wonder that social mobility is at an all time low.

Have things changed in recent years?? When I went to a grammar school in 1994 I can't think of anyone out of 90 girls who came from a private school. If there was anybody then they certainly kept quiet about it lol!!

Don't know what to think really although this has been an interesting thread.

I passed the 11+ in the same way that LeQ's DH did. No fuss, just a bit of a challenge one morning. I cried when I realised that it would mean that I would be going to secondary school not knowing a soul a twenty-minute train journey away.

When I got there it soon became apparent that there were hardly any children in my situation there. I suspect that if girls like me were the only ones to have a chance then there might not have been enough of us to fill the available places. My parents were always fond of reflected glory but not so keen on putting any effort in themselves.

Most of my peers had gone to excellent Catholic primary schools in select areas where housing was abnormally expensive. Some from prep schools. None from my town at all.

This was in 1983.

I had friends who were continually badgering me on behalf of their parents from the first year onwards to disclose my results in every piddly little test because they were being pressurised to find out why the gel from the scutty town was doing so well and why.

Not very nice for them, and they were the ones who were quite bright, who were keeping up with the expected standard yet they had that to deal with! My parents didn't even know which subjects I was taking for GCSE let alone the grades I achieved.

I did a bit of 11+ tuition myself a few years ago and had to turn away a pupil with a very optimistic mother. The answer to one of the verbal-reasoning questions was, "lake".

The pupil (aged ten) asked what a lake was.

I sent my daughter to a private school purely because my local primary and the one in the next village told me that they wouldn't have the resources to be able to cater for her needs. She was reading at the level of an eight year old by the time she was four. The state primaries told me that she would have to start at the beginning again and wouldn't provide books for her ability for me to read with her, she was equally bright at maths. In contrast, the private school 15 miles away said that they would teach each child as an individual so that they could work to the best of their ability so we sacrified everything to give her that chance, with the help of a scholarship which she won by examination at the age of seven.

She sat the 11+ for the grammar school and was awarded one of the highest marks recorded, so we are able to leave the private sector as we know that she will be taught at her level. It would have been grossly unfair to disadvantage her simply because the local state primary school let her down.

Rather than penalise the kids and the parents, wouldn't it be better to have an approriate gifted and talented programme in all primary schools in the same way that we have support for those with learning difficulties? That way there would be no need to go into the private sector at all. Although, it would make the schools even more resource-stretched if they have more pupils!

We also have to remember that people who do send their kids to independent schools are also paying their taxes to pay for the state schools, so they do have just as much right to go to them.

YANBU

YABU. Their parents pay taxes too. No social engineering, thank you.

I think it's pretty obvious that the current system is unfair to the vast majority of children and damaging to society.

The question is, are the 'winners' (ie, those parents whose money and educational capital enables them to manipulate the system to their children's advantage) morally justified in helping to perpetuate the inequity by pursuing an elitist education for their own children.

Those here who've been able to opt out of the state sector say it's morally justifiable, because they have to put their child's welfare ahead of the needs of the rest of society.

The bottom line however is that the children of bright, motivated and supportive parents do VERY WELL in the state sector. They still on the whole come out on top. There is no arguing with this - the figures are there for all to see.

And poor children benefit HUGELY from being educated alongside their more privileged peers. I strongly believe this.

For all its faults, selection on ability has to be much fairer than selection by money.

Ooh, old thread that I posted on under a different name back when we were going through the 11+ waiting game! So glad that's well and truly over!

For all it's faults, selection on ability has to be much fairer than selection by money

I agree with you bbqjuly. Unfortunately with the form the current 11 plus exams take it's really selection on both. I refuse to pay for tutoring for our year 5 son ( partly because I used to tutor myself so am doing past papers etc myself). His school say he is of the ability to get in and they have no concerns about him entering, but there is absolutely no way he would get in without some sort of coaching. Okay he's no genius, but he'supposedly solidly of the standard required. He hasn't even done a few of the maths topics as they're the year 6 syllabus and the exam is taken a couple of weeks into year 6. I'm not convinced he'll get a place anyway.

It's incredibly stressful for the kids as well. I thought I'd made it clear to ds2 that it's his choice whether he sits the exam and that we have no concerns about the local comprehensive (I prefer some aspects of it tbh) but he still asked me whether I'd be 'angry' if he didn't get in. I said of course not and why would he think that, and he said his friend's parents had told them they would be angry.

If the 11 plus was a proper ability test I'd have no particular objection, but it's not it really does include social selection as well.

"If the 11 plus was a proper ability test I'd have no particular objection"

But should we throw the baby out with the bathwater just because the 11-plus test isn't perfect yet? So the only choice is to go private if you have the money? At least with the 11-plus some children whose families can't afford fees would get the chance to go to a selective school. If you reject the test wholesale you disallow the opportunity for everyone without money.

And in this day and age, is it beyond the wit of educationalists to come up with what you call a "proper ability test"?

I don't see why you would that- the whole thing is a travesty because the majority have had tutoring or being doing papers for months on end. I would love the impossible where no one had ever seen a question before and the truly intelligent would work it out.
Since the entire system is unfair it has to remain a free for all.

I can't bloody wait to get the 11+ over with, roll on September.

Where we live every middle class child goes to a tutor, some of the more wealthy use the prep when their not- so- bright child isn't doing so well, it's not a level playing field AT ALL, it makes me so angry.

DS does go to a tutor, even though he is bright and goes to a good village school, I just don't think it's fair to send him into that exam room unprepared.

It is madness. What really infuriates me is old chestnut brought forward to defend grammar schools of 'it gives the DC from a disadvantaged background a way up and out'. This was true at one time but not today-they haven't a hope against the bright, tutored DC.

And why do only the bright deserve a way out anyway?

Well I think either the grammar school system should be expanded (that's why it's such a mess now compared to the past) or the system should be comprehensive with streaming (which is what happens anyway now).

Never thought I'd say that btw being ex grammar school myself. But there is so much pressure on the kids these days.

And don't even get me started on parents buying their children iPads for passing. Have just had the conversation with ds2 that no I won't be buying him a reward if he passes because that doesn't matter to me, but I will get him something like a game (not a bloody iPad) if he works hard. Although if he decides to not take the sodding exam that's fine too.

I am playing the game even though I don't really agree with the way it's played iyswim.

I think teaching has changed over the years and the 11+ seems to be more traditional, I don't think the content of the 11+ is taught in schools, I do think it's unfair for a child to sit the exam without having looked at a paper, if that makes sense.

Agree iggle. I'm playing the game as well (just not outsourcing it) even though I disagree with it, otherwise there's no point taking it. I can think of a million and one more interesting and worthwhile ways ds2 could be spending his time though.

YANBU and if parents don't like it they could always take their chances with the state system during the primary years,nobody forces you to go private.

Grammar school was designed for state educated kids.

LeQueen me too. DS won't sit down and work with me or DH, we get grunts and moaning.......he will listen to old Mr tutor though

Like I said a year ago , I am pleased we are not in a grammar area, otherwise we would also be grudgingly playing the game and paying for private tutoring.

It is a system that really isn't working.

As it is we only have a handful of comprehensives surrounded by numerous insanely expensive private schools around here. Lovely it is!

They already do this in some areas. In poole the local state primaries are designated catchment schools for the grammars. Preference is given to candidates from catchment schools, with the independant sector kids now at the bottom of the list.

Not really fair either, as you cant say the child at the top of the list on marks should really now be at the bottom if he went to an independant school, but its a crude fix and that is what they have done.

No doubt it is also deemed unfair if the parents who would have sent their children to private prep now also try to send them to the few good oversubscribed primaries which are in the posher parts of town, thus pushing out other children who might have got in.

Social engineering at its best