Feeling angry realising that I wouldn't get the job I have if I went for it now because I have children

[Rollergirl1]

I overheard a phone conversation today between one of my colleagues (senior management) on the phone to a recruitment agency, talking about a candidate that he had just seen. The candidate was a woman in her 40's. He was very pleased with her, liked her profile, how she came across, was happy with her experience. Her only downfall was that she has children. He went on to explain that he didn't feel that he could ask how old (her children were). But his concerns were that she would not be able to be away from home for, example, 3 days at a time. He didn't even ask her these questions. But the upshot was that she was not a candidate, because she had children. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

I have 2 young children and work part-time. This overheard conversation has brought me right back down to earth. Although I have worked for the company for over 10 years and have a wealth of experience within our company and within our business, if I were to be interviewed now for a full-time job with my company, I probably wouldn't be considered because I have children.

How disgusting is that?!

The recruitment agencies should be setting their clients straight and pointing out to them the error of their ways if any comment is made about children but sadly they have bills to pay to so they are complicit in the whole process :(
The only other thing to do is put in any clubs or voluntary work you did on maternity leave and imply it was a job, I've done that before, Chairperson for the NCT that sort of thing.

Capreece I am not talking about reality versus rhetoric. I am saying that you can't dispute the very real evidence that things have changed historically for women in the workplace. It is clearly not the case that this has ended discrimination but if people acquiesce when they witness or are on the receiving end of this behaviour then nothing changes. It a lot harder to discriminate in this way than it was 40, 30 or even 20 years a go I don't know how anyone could say this is not true.

Oh I remember I have been asked why the gap. Ah I dislike that question. Unless I lie I will be mentioning children.

But I have had four years at home which is more a great chasm than a delicate gap.

I find that answering it quickly with assurance is best for me (like ripping off a bandaid). Annoying but there you go.

They can ask what you've been up to really can't they?

I sometimes feel sorry for employers though - they're not allowed to ask if you have children, so can't always judge how much time you can give in an emergency or over busy periods, which, in some industries, you will have.

In a previous role, I said I've got one son, and my boss immediately said he's not allowed to ask. So I said it's fine, I'm volunteering it, but that I have childcare sorted and back-up care should it be needed. I just thought it was easier than not mentioning it at all, and then expecting them to not act surprised when I need to take time off for doctors appointments etc.

My current position was perfectly advertised though - they said from the start that some travel will be expected, and on application form you had to tick unlimited, 50%, occasional, or none. I like that - then it's clear from the start. At the interview, they gave an estimate of how much likely, and asked whether I would be able to do it.

I wish there wasn't all these very strict rules, as assumptions very often worse than just giving someone the chance to discuss.

Goldenbear - not debating it's better than it was. It is. It is, however, still discriminatory and it makes a lot of assumptions. The thing is, I actually empathise with the employers. My dad runs a small business and if he took on someone and then had to pay them maternity pay whilst also paying someone else to do 'their' job then it would be completely unfeasible (luckily he only needs to employ people ad hoc so it doesn't actually apply).

I can see things from the PoV of the employer, but it doesn't stop the fact that I am finding it impossible to get a job. OK. Put a lot of personal problems here but decided to delete them. We don;t actually disgree, Goldenbear, I'm just feeling v. bruised by employment market and financial situation atm, so perhaps best if I bow out now.

I was asked at interview once when I could start the job - they knew I had taken redundancy so didn't have to give notice or anything.

I replied I had a couple of domestic details to sort out and would let them know as soon as that was done. The 'domestic details' were aged 1 and 2 at the time so I needed to recruit a new nanny. That was the first inkling the compnay had of me having kids.

I then travelled regularly throughout UK and the rest of Europe with overnight stays for the next 7 years. At the same time my husband was travelling globally. We managed by comparing diaries always before committing to a trip, by having a great nanny and very supportive mothers. It was very rare we were both away at the same time. I still remember the maps we had on the wall UK, Europe and World so we could point out where Mummy/Daddy was at any one time. Their basic geography was good! They were also very loved children who got a lot of time/attention/care etcetc with their parents.

One thing I never did was apologise for having kids. If I was leaving early to see a school show/sports day, I said I was leaving early to see a show/sports day. If I had to stay home becuase DC was ill, I didn't pretend it was me that was unwell.

I don't think the work 'playing field' will ever be completely level but it's up to each generation of women to make it that bit easier for the next by challenging recieved 'wisedom' (whether they choose to be SAHM, WOHM or whatever) and showing that they are adult enough to understand the committments they take on and can manage responsibities without letting anyone down.

It's a silly assumption for him to have made, and one he wouldn't have made if the candidate in question was a man.

I earn more than DH and often travel for work. DH doesn't, because of childcare, and because he just doesn't want to. He is not especially career orientated, and that's fine for us.

I can't belive he actually told the recruitment agency why he was not considering this woman. He'll have looked like a real dick.

Can I just dispel the widely held myth that employers are not 'allowed' to ask about family. Employment law just isn't that dictatorial in terms of banning specific questions.

The requirement is that the employer doesn't discriminate. The question itself isn't discriminatory. It's rarely relevant and is bad practice but it's not illegal to ask it.

Where it does become illegal and discriminatory is if the question is only asked of women, not of men.

Notes are meant to be taken at interviews so they can alter them to suggest that family arrangements were discussed with men too, feck all you can do about it.

Capreece, small businesses get over 100% of statutory maternity pay back from the government. So provided your dad didn't pay maternity pay over SMP he wouldn't be paying SMP as well as paying someone else. I'm not denying there are costs associated with maternity leave eg training someone else but this idea that businesses end up paying twuce is very damaging to women's prospects.

In some ways it would be easier if interviewers were able to ask what the family set-up is so that interviewees can categorically state whether travel, late-working etc. can be accomodated. It's when assumptions are made that good candiates can be overlooked.

I think that most annoying thing about this is that the same would never be assumed of a working father. But many fathers may well be unable to do these extras as well.

People shouldn't assume, they should be able to ask.

And as for the chap who has a dependent parent, this is going to become more of an issue with an ageing population, or is that just going to end up being another 'valid reason' to make (possibly) incorrect assumptions and further discount women from jobs

You do not have to disclose the fact you have children in an interview by Law. Dont know if anyone already wrote that as too many posts to read through.

Totally unacceptable to rule someone out as they have children and also very short-sighted, you could take on someone without children who then goes on to have multiple maternity leaves.

re: the days away, acceptible to check that she understands thats part of the job. I have been away with work, even when DS2 was just 7 months old.

Her children might be older, he partner might have a flexible job, she might have a live in nanny, your colleague is jumping to conclusions.

I have worked in places where people with children expected special treatment and were constantly moaning that child free people should be the ones to go to meetings in inconvenient locations, or do the anti social hour shift or whatever. It is only a minority of working mothers who do behave like this, but it leaves a very bad impression and, as with so many other things, everyone ends up being tarred.

'many fathers may well be unable to do these extras as well' -- yes, and when my DH turned one down on the basis that he had to do his share of the childcare that week, his then-boss said, 'Well, if you don't WANT to play with the big boys...' and went on to lecture him on part-time-ism and making sacrifices to get where he was today, etc, etc...

Boss is divorced and doesn't see his kids, I wonder why?

By cakeywakey Fri 04-Feb-11 13:16:47
"In some ways it would be easier if interviewers were able to ask what the family set-up is so that interviewees can categorically state whether travel, late-working etc. can be accomodated."

But surely the best judge of whether the 'family set-up' will accommodate travel/late-working is the interviewee? The interviewer only needs to explain exactly what the job entails and ask the candidate whether they are willing and able to do that.

I have 4 children and have learnt to never mention the fact I have children in an interview or other business situation, unless someone asks me the question directly.

Whenever I mention I have 4 children, most men think I am a rubbish mother for having a career and feel like they have to refer to the fact that their wives do not work and choose to be at home instead.

One man even asked me once "don't you miss your children?" grrr

Hi Flowery, absolutely the best judge of the situation is the interviewee, but I can imagine that many interviewers - like the one described by the OP - just make broadbrush assumptions based on little or no fact because they can't ask outright.

The fact that he didn't ask the woman if she would be happy/able to be away for up to three days at a time mean that she didn't even have the chance to say she was/n't.

And family set-up could also include looking after elderly relatives, not just children of whatever age. Which of course applies to both men and women - although these thoughts rarely seem to come into play when it's men being interviewed. Makes me so

Emy, someone I worked with was at a late meeting once and was asked by an older man if her husband minded her being out that late! Bloody cheek!

Hi, sorry to abandon the thread but have had a busy day today on my day off with the kids!

I was utterly incredulous when listening to this guy on the phone, not just because he was sat the other side to the only two part-time working mums in out department. What a mistake to make! I hadn't thought what the recruitment company must have made of it. Obviously they will work in our company's best interest but they must have come across like a cretin.

I am not really sure what I am going to do to be honest. I am a walking cliche of a working mum, in that I am constrained to dropping and picking up my children to my childcare arrangements. I used to do lots of travel for the company pre children but it's not an option for me anymore. The company have been quite good about that and have made sure that I have work that ensures that I can get somewhere and back in a day. I guess they don't have to be that accomadating. But still, i am shocked at this guys attitude and misconceptions about working mothers.

I think I will be pondering this all weekend. Thanks for all your responses.