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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Probably - my boss thinks so

90 replies

worknotworking · 01/02/2011 19:53

Am a regular lurker but namechanged for this just in case.

I'm the office dogsbody in a small office. Most of what I do is last minute and unplannable and I'm quite happy with that but..
I was having lunch today when the hr manager suddenly came out and asked me to go and get some lunch for a visitor. Problem is it's a 10 minute walk each way to the nearest shop and the weather was foul (5 minutes previuosly a collegue had started to walk to the shop and come back in for his car).

So I really didn't want to go and the annoyance was clear on my face and I said something whingy. Manager asked what we usually do (plan better) and if there are no nearer options (no - sandwich van had been and gone). So I agreed to go - ok grudgeingly and then had a brainwave and rang the collegue with the car. All sorted I thought.

But hr manager complained to line manager about my attitude. Yes it was a bad attitude but I think it was an unreasonalbe request (and she made no attempt to appologies for interrupting my lunch or sending me). She wants me to face disiclipinary action for this.

I think - although it is my job - it was an unreasonalbe request and am hoping someone will agree with me.

Thanks for reading - bit ranty but this has really upset me.

OP posts:
QueenStromba · 01/02/2011 23:15

"telling off" her staff and not actually paying attention to what people are saying are both good indicators of whether someone is going to be the particularly cretinous type of middle management. I'm sure I could find other examples in what she has written but I really don't feel like reading through her posts again.

Sandinmyshoes · 02/02/2011 07:15

I would put forward your (reasonable) defense but there's a really easy way to turn this situation into a good one for you by saying that in future you will be more proactive about preempting this type of situation... if you know a meeting's arranged around lunchtime ask the person who's meeting it is if they would like you to arrange lunch. That way you'll be able to get from the sandwich van and avoid the trip out. Plus coming up with positive solutions when someone's being an arse to you never fails to make you look like a star and make them look even more petty.

ajandjjmum · 02/02/2011 07:25

Oh right, that explains the aggression.

RantyMcRantpants · 02/02/2011 08:03

But the HR person knew the person was coming a week before hand, so it was bad planning on her part not to have arranged lunch. I'm guessing the reason for her attitude is that she knew this and was embarrased and was taking it out on the OP.

clam · 02/02/2011 08:19

I always feel a bit Hmm when managers refer to "my" staff. What's wrong with "colleagues?" Oh yes, doesn't tell people forcefully enough that you're In Charge and Important.

ValiumSandwichTime · 02/02/2011 08:26

There's rain and there' omg only an idiot would go out in that, and it sounds like the latter.

I don't believe it's resonable to ask somebody else to go out in weather you wouldn't be happy to go out in yourself.

MainlyMaynie · 02/02/2011 08:33

I say 'my staff'. I say it in a 'fuck off if you think you are doing anything like sending them out for 20 minutes in the rain' type of way rather than an 'I am the boss of these people' type of way :o. We work in a tough environment and I think part of my job is to protect them from it. Hence I am often saying things like, 'I hope you don't think I am going to ask my staff to do that'. I think any manager who needs to 'tell off' their staff needs some additional management skills.

juleswill · 02/02/2011 09:03

Unless you have continually had a bad attitude towards things she has asked you to do YANBU. You could have maybe responded in a more cheerful way, but how many of us would be delighted and eager to fulfil such a request?

HR Manager was unreasonable in her request, and failing to see that asking you to go out in such weather with no notice might make you a bitHmm

It is absolutely unreasonable to pursue disciplinary action based on this initial reaction - unless you swore at her or something! You still sorted lunch out so what's the problem?

As well as being wet it has been absolutely freezing too - an employer has a responsibility for the welfare of their employees.

You would most certainly have grounds for an appeal should it go as far as a warning on your record.

Sounds like she has it in for you though - is there a clash of personalities?

Bathsheba · 02/02/2011 09:11

Does the HR Manager know you have no access to a car and therefore her request would not have been met quickly anyway...??

I'd take some time over the next week to put together a document detailing options etc for inpromptu lunches - what is possible in the local area (sandwich shops, pizza delivery places with numbers etc) and circulate this around the office so that everyone knows what options etc are available.

But definately ensure that she knows you have no access to a car so whilst you are happy to do things like that, she really can't spring something like that on you as it will take you 40 mins etc to walk and that really isn't a good use of company time (they will essentially be paying you to walk in the rain) - whereas for her to actually take the guest out for lunch to a local lunch place might actually have been not only quicker but cheaper in the long run...!

Myleetlepony · 02/02/2011 09:27

IF this goes any further - they will have to inform you in writing of the disciplinary meeting and they will have to quote the reasons for it in the letter.

Look up the ACAS links given and see what breaks you should be having BY LAW.
I suggest you speak to ACAS about this because forwarned is forearmed and it will set your mind at rest. If you get a letter I think you would be advised by ACAS to respond, and I'm thinking your letter would include something like this (but check with ACAS):

Point out that this is a one-off and you are normally extremely helpful. In this case even though you reacted, lunch was provided. Apologise for the reaction but state that you think a disciplinary hearing is an over-reaction.
Suggest that it is unreasonable to ask someone to interrupt their lunch to go out for 20 minutes on foot in extremely bad weather.
Suggest that it is unreasonable to demand that someone go out to collect said lunch with no notice. Offer a solution to this, maybe that managers should check their diaries each morning and notify you of lunch requirements. (Then there won't be a delay in lunch arriving as you could go earlier).
Using the info from ACAS, inform them of your legal requirement to a break and ask them what arrangements will be made to accommodate this. During which time you obviously won't be working.

Actually, I think if you ring ACAS now, make a few notes, then go and have a chat with your nice line manager, this problem will go away.

Myleetlepony · 02/02/2011 09:28

p.s. If lunches were requested by say 9.00 am in the morning, you might even be able to ring the local sandwich van and get them delivered. A huge saving in company time!

Bonsoir · 02/02/2011 09:28

If your HR Manager makes an unreasonable request, you should respond as a responsible, polite adult, explaining rationally why you do not wish (or are unable) to perform the task requested, not as a whingy child.

So yes, YANBU.

Bonsoir · 02/02/2011 09:28

Sorry - YABU

xstitch · 02/02/2011 09:29

It is horrible working the rest of the day after getting soaking wet and freezing cold. I remember being sent out and wasn't allowed to go and get my coat from the locker room because it would take too long. When I got back I wasn't allowed to waste company time drying off. Spent the rest of the shift being told to stop shivering and to stop dripping on stuff (it was very heavy rain that day).

AxisofEvil · 02/02/2011 09:33

I think Bonsoir is right here.

Whether or not the request was reasonable it sounds like the problem the HR manager has an issue was the rather petulant way you dealt with the request. I'd be pretty peeved if I asked how we normally handled a situation and was told to "plan better".

GnomeDePlume · 02/02/2011 09:45

I think that the HR manager cocked-up having failed to sort lunch in advance. So when she approached WnW to save her she was already in a bad mood. WnW could really only have saved the day and been in the HR manager's good books if she had magically produced a lunch from thin air or handed over her own lunch. Instead WnW was a bit chippy. HR manager now has someone to blame for her own cock-up. It is now all WnW's fault. HR manager whines to WnW's manager.

If WnW's manager has any sense he/she will say to HR manager 'leave it with me'. A quiet word about chippiness will be had. WnW should then take up Myleetlepony's sage advice and everyone will be happy(ish).

Disciplinary proceedings about 'attitude' will just make everyone look stupid.

lesley33 · 02/02/2011 09:59

I think you are misinterpreting my phrase "telling them off". Of course I would never use this phrase at work. But I think staff need to know if they have done something wrong and what your expectations are for the future. I have seen problems arise when I have worked in other firms where somebody is consistently doing something that annoys people, but no-one tells them this - very unfair IMO.

I actually think I have very good management skills. I took over a failing company with a high turnover of staff. Now we have a staff of very hard workers who stay a long time - even before the recession. When we have made people redundant, it is common for them to reapply and get jobs here again when we expand.

I always address staff at work as colleagues; buit in this situation, the word colleagues doesn't explain the context at my workplace.

I expect staff to be flexible, but I am also very flexible with them. As long as the job gets done, I am very laid back about people juggling hours round to suit their home life, working from home, etc.

And of course I wouldn't expect people to go out in the rain if they hadn't brought a coat. But nearly all our staff go out regularly to meetings and so should be prepared for the weather (it is impossible to park close to many of the offices we visit, so some walking is inevitable).

But then there always seem to be people here willing to throw insults on the basis of a short post.

clam · 02/02/2011 10:28

I think it would be worthwhile the OP pointing out that she would like an officially designated lunch period. Either she was at lunch herself, in which case she shouldn't really have been asked, or she was working whilst having to eat, which is wrong on other levels. One for the HR manager to work out, I would think, and might make her think twice about disciplinary procedures, if it brings to light poor practice within the office on her watch.

juleswill · 02/02/2011 10:42

Bonsoir and AxisofEvil you think it is reasonable for the HR Manager to pursue disciplinary action on this?? That is what the OP is clearly upset about - it is not really about the initial request that the HR Manager made.

HR Manager could have just have a word to Boss about said 'attitude' and leave it at that.

I think the HR Manager has been unreasonable on to counts - the request in the first place, and pursuing disciplinary action.

The OP wasn't entirely unreasonable in her response as it seems the HR Manager was taking the p**s - however OP could have handled it in a more mature fashion. It wasn't exactly gross insubordination though!!

Some people feel that just because they are paid more they should be treated like some sort of god rather than another human being, and they in turn get to treat the people lower down the scale like minions.

juleswill · 02/02/2011 10:43

sorry two counts

Bonsoir · 02/02/2011 10:54

There is never any excuse for anyone to show annoyance on their face or whinge at work.

TheDevilAndTheDeepBlueSea · 02/02/2011 11:02

Bonsoir, what a lot of nonsense. We're not robots without facial expression or free will Hmm

Bonsoir · 02/02/2011 11:03

Precisely - we are not robots, and can therefore control our behaviour to meet commonly accepted professional standards of pleasantness.

GnomeDePlume · 02/02/2011 11:07

Bonsoir - so long as the same rule was applied to the HR manager. From what I have read there was an all round failure to meet those standards. The one in the the senior position shouldnt be allowed to penalise the junior for failing to meet standards she too failed to meet.

juleswill · 02/02/2011 11:09

There is never any excuse for anyone to show annoyance on their face or whinge at work. Right so in that case if Boss grabs boobs - one must not show annoyance? If Colleague punches you in face, just smile and explain that is not reasonable behaviour? What planet do you live on Bonsoir?