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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think you shouldn't drink milk if you won't eat veal?

62 replies

PlasticLentilWeaver · 30/01/2011 12:27

I don't mean crate reared continental veal, but British rose veal.

It's a by-product of the dairy industry. Without calves, there's no milk. Surely it is better to rear surplus dairy bull calves for veal in the UK than to slaughter within days of birth or export to the continent?

Veal calves live just as long as lambs, or bacon pigs, and way longer than chickens, so it isn't about duration of lifespan.

So to my way of thinking, if people want to drink milk, they should also be prepared to eat the other output of the production process. Or AIBU?

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SoupDragon · 30/01/2011 14:18

I think there is a bit of the Bambi issue as well - I can't being myself to eat cute little bambis or bunny rabbits although there is no rational reason not to. Veal I wouldn't have a problem with although it is inextricably linked with crates in my mind. It takes a lot to overcome that feeling even though it is no longer true.

PlasticLentilWeaver · 30/01/2011 14:21

cristiane spot on. That's my point. People don't make the link.

crates have been banned in the UK for over 20 years, and across the rest of Europe for 4 years. Are so many people oblivious to this?

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SoupDragon · 30/01/2011 14:28

Yes they probably are.

JaneS · 30/01/2011 14:38

Plastic - I think people are. I thought I was reasonably aware but I got it totally wrong about where veal comes from.

But in this country we're not very good at knowing where meat comes from and how it gets to us. Every now and again I see things in the paper about how Poor Disadvantaged Inner-City Kids don't know that ham is from pigs, but actually (aside from this being lazy journalism), I think it's not uncommon for people who think they're quite foodie to be quite ignorant. I know people who buy all the trendy cookbooks but wouldn't have the faintest idea how trendy meat like quail or pheasant is reared and who certainly wouldn't think of dairy farming as cruel in the least - because what's more natural than lovely mummy cows giving milk to the nice farmers?

(No, seriously: I've heard that argument. Too much James Herriot at a young age, I think!)

QuietTiger · 30/01/2011 15:15

I'm married to a dairy farmer, so feel qualified to comment on this thread...

The milk industry is actually very brutal.

To produce milk, dairy cows need to have a calf. In the majority of cases the calf is usually removed within 24 hours of birth so the mother can be milked for milk. The separated calf (usually kept in separate housing to the cows) is either then fed milk powder replacement twice/three times a day or given milk that is taken from the cows specifically for the calves when they are milked (my DH took it out of the milk tank after milking).

Most farmers keep the female calves (heifers) to grow on as replacement stock. Many farmers kill bull calves at birth. I categorically know of 2 dairy farms within a 5 mile radius of our farm, including the biggest in our area which has 600 cows, where the hunt goes once a week and kills the bull calves born that week. They are then fed to the hounds or incinerated. This is because the average price for an unweaned dairy bull calf at a market can be as little as £10. Sometimes they can't even be sold. When you factor in transport costs to market and the costs of registering the calves, they can end up costing the farmer money to send them to a sale.

Other farmers find killing calves at birth morally reprehensible (my DH included) and so keep the bull calves and grow them on as dairy beef. They grow on to about 18 months - 2 years and then are sent for slaughter. They end up as the cheaper cuts of meat, used for beef burgers, petfood, you get the idea.

The milk industry is driven solely by economics. The supermarket (Tescos etc) will charge its customer roughly 80p for a litre of milk and they often use the milk as a loss leader to get more customers.

Farmers on the very best milk production contracts get 28p litre. I think Tescos has just started giving its suppliers 28.5p a litre. That's for FULL milk straight out of the cow, so the semi-skimmed milk you buy in the supermarket has had the butterfat and cream removed (and is sold separately). The majority of farmers get between 22p and 24p a litre. To PRODUCE a litre of milk, it costs roughly 27p a litre. (Mostly due to the hike in feed and fuel costs), so to produce milk huge numbers of farmers either only break even (because of being able to do economies of scale) or they loose money.

Consequently, bull dairy calves are not cost effective because they have to be fed and it costs money to do so. It's cheaper to kill them at birth and more economically driven farmers than my DH make the decision on a pure cash basis.

During the months Novemeber - December 2010, 53 dairy farmers went out of the dairy business. (Statistics from Farmers Weekly 6th Jan 2011). We were one of them. People have NO IDEA about the dairy industry.

JaneS · 30/01/2011 15:24

Quiet, thanks for explaining.

My ex and his dad sold their male calves on to places that would kill them, not for meat for the hunt in our area I think, but I think it was usually for animal meat/incineration. He said that it is relatively expensive to raise male dairy calves for veal as they do not mature as quickly as beef calves would, and of course veal is quite a niche market in this country.

I think dairy farmers have it really hard and so many people do not realize how hard they work - especially when you think that farmers don't only produce food but also look after huge amounts of the countryside. Even if you're against pesticides and so on, you have to admit that without farmers looking after hedges and trees and keeping down rabbits and so on, there would be far less space for the rest of us to walk in and enjoy.

RatherBe · 30/01/2011 15:35

QuietTiger, I'm sorry about your farm.

Am I right in thinking that some farmers sell male calves to other European countries (where crates are used in veal production)? I think I have read about this but I am not sure that the economics make sense.

fivegomadindorset · 30/01/2011 15:37

So sorry Quiet, you can add another 3 from us here.

Friends rear veal, they got out of dairying about 6 years ago.

QuietTiger · 30/01/2011 15:43

Thanks Ratherbe, I do appreciate the sentiment.

I should, however, have made myself more clear!Smile We've only gone out of the business of milking cows. We're staying in farming, just not milking cows. We're increasing our arable and also going back into sheep, which opens a whole new can of worms!

And yes, I do believe that some calves go over to Europe for veal but am not 100% sure about the logistics/process as we've never done it, nor would we do so.

fivegomadindorset · 30/01/2011 15:49

We are hoping that someone will lease our dairies, think we may be lucky, and again like you sticking with sheep and beef and getting out of the arable side.

dinkystinky · 30/01/2011 15:53

YABU - by your reckoning hindus should eat beef and veal despite religious reasons for not doing so

PlasticLentilWeaver · 30/01/2011 22:03

Well, as an atheist, I consider religion about the weakest excuse for a dietary choice. You'll get me started on humane slaughter next.

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