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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to throw choke chain owning people in the gallows..

101 replies

Spanky100 · 27/01/2011 15:28

Makes me so angry
Angry

OP posts:
WynkenBlynkenandNod · 27/01/2011 20:26

The Halti Harness (not the head collar) worked on my 25kg dog and it doesn't cause pain like something such as the Lupi harness. It has two attachment points and when the lead is clipped to the front one she didn't pull. I've combined this with reinforcing loose lead walking and all the stop start walking in circles thing and she can walk well on a loose lead. It was the harness that started the whole process of her being able to do this.

MothershipG · 28/01/2011 08:07

hephaestus Different breeds have different tendencies, I'm sure your Huskies pull when harnessed, that's what their bred for! The minute I put my Miniature Schnauzer in a harness she stopped pulling! For her, wearing something around her body has a calming effect on her terrier type nature.

You can't always generalise, what works or doesn't for one dog may have a completely different result on another.

jasminetom · 28/01/2011 11:02

For goodness sake! I use a choke chain and I am not scum thanks very much. In Qatar where I live and increasingly in the UK, dogs are lucky to have a decent home with a loving owner who will keep them forever, a choke chain is no more cruel than a cricket bat, in the wrong hands both can hurt. And if only the chavvy druggies with their predictable pitbulls and Staffies would use them one could walk through the park without your dog being ripped to pieces.
Get a life.

DooinMeCleanin · 28/01/2011 11:04

jasmine why can you not train your dog not to pull?

Butkin · 28/01/2011 11:11

Waitwhat - we did take our Shiba to lessons when he was a puppy but both trainers we used told us the breed is virtually untrainable. They are a Japanese Hunting Dog and very self assured and willful. He'd never come to us no matter how many times we called him or offered him treats unless he fancied to return.

He also has a double thick coat - rather like a miniature Akita - so even though we use the half check (as recommended by his multi-Crufts winning breeder) it doesn't actually strangle him and he doesn't make choking noises.

He has the free run of our large garden for most of the day but does go on the flexi lead for his walks. I'm surprised there was negativity towards these on this thread because it gives him the ability to chose his own direction and gives him much more scope for investigation of smells etc on his walks in the countryside.

DooinMeCleanin · 28/01/2011 11:16

What utter bollocks. I owned and trained a Japanese Akita to walk to heel perfectly without the use of a choke chain. The Shiba Inu is from the same breed family, they are very trainable and highly intelligent. Admittedly they are very stubborn and wilfull, but if worked the right way can be trained with ease.

jasminetom · 28/01/2011 11:24

My dogs don't pull. I foster about 20 stray dogs a year. Choke chains are no big deal, I don't agree with the spiked ones they sell here and have managed to stop the vet clinic where I work stocking them. There are real issues with animal welfare to worry about without a bunch of mums crying over responsible dog owners controlling their dogs.

jasminetom · 28/01/2011 11:29

I object to people owning dangerous dogs such as Akita and I would hope that any Akita owner would take measures such as a choke chain to control them.

BeerTricksPotter · 28/01/2011 11:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jasminetom · 28/01/2011 11:38

usually the very people who own designer dangerous dogs are not capable of training themselves let alone their dogs.

BeerTricksPotter · 28/01/2011 11:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jasminetom · 28/01/2011 11:42

I wouldn't be seen dead with a piddling little choke chain. I use a bloody great big choke chain.

hephaestus · 28/01/2011 12:55

"I wouldn't be seen dead with a piddling little choke chain. I use a bloody great big choke chain."

Grin Grin Grin

Re: Harnesses, I know I'm making a sweeping generalisation there but I am so tired of seeing people post about their pulling dog and the first answers always being "oooh, try a harness, wouldn't want little pookie to hurt his neck."

The front attachment harnesses like the Halti one can actually work well, but personally I like to keep the distinction between collar = heel, harness = pull.

DooinMeCleanin · 28/01/2011 14:07

Had I had to rely on brute force to restrain him I'd have been fucked. He was about 10 stone of pure muscle fgs, how would a chain have helped me control that???

He walked nicely because he was taught from day 1 that walking nicely = good things happen.

He was well socialised and well trained and in all his 14 years of life never posed a threat to anyone or anything.

I object to people who deem dogs dangerous on breed alone and I object to people owning any dog if they need to rely on force to control it.

jasminetom · 28/01/2011 15:37

This is the most ludicrous argument and a waste of a Friday (although it has made me feel better about my own life). If I choose to use a chain, that's my business. If you don't, fair enough I respect that. But don't tell me what to do, I am an experienced dog owner and can do as I please and as for asking for people to be hung for using a chain.....try the real world for once. I visit the pet shops weekly here to ensure that the puppys, kittens, koalas, cheetahs etc have food and water. I have bought baby monkeys and baboons that are in terrible pain and traumatised just so I can get them euthanised and put out of their misery. I do my bit and probably a hell of a lot more than you do and using a choke chain is the least of my worries.

DooinMeCleanin · 28/01/2011 15:54

Respect to you for your work with animals, however you should not presume that others do not do similar Smile

All aspects of animal welfare concern me, which is why I condemn the use of choke chains in training dogs and general use.

My ex-pound dog did pull. I trained him not to do this with time, effort and a flat collar.

The Akita I had from being a pup, he did not pull because he was never rewarded for doing so as a puppy. My current rescue puppy, however, is a different story. She did not pull two days ago, nor did she bark at strange dogs, so if you'll excuse me I'm off to murder my DH and explain to him again why I do not like him walking my dogs, no matter how relaxing he finds it.

jasminetom · 28/01/2011 16:15

Rescue dogs are such hard work (like husbands) but worth it as well. Respect to you for taking her on. Have a nice weekend

Laska · 28/01/2011 17:43

"Positive reinforcement is the ideal but when you've got an adult large-breed dog that has never walked on a lead before and is intent on nailing every dog and/or person that comes their way, if a choke chain allows their handler to retain some semblance of control until training takes effect, so be it."

I had one of those (GSD, never been trained, deemed 'uncontrollable' by previous owner's vet and behaviourist - clearly a rubbish behaviourist but that's another story!). Before she was trained to walk beautifully to heel both on and off-lead, it was my responsibility to look out for hazards coming up (i.e. another dog) and take evasive action. She was walked close on a short lead and when she pulled, we simply circled left. I was 8st when we got her, so hardly butch, but perfectly capable of holding her even if she was to lunge. She soon learned that pulling achieved nothing and learned to walk in position, which she was rewarded for with praise and intermittent treats in the early days.

She has a half-check collar (for convenience as she doesn't wear one in the house so it's quick to use), set so that at its tightest it is like a normal collar and can NEVER choke her if she were to pull.

It seems to me that a good trainer would never use pain or aversives. There is a huge amount of evidence of the cervical damage that choke chains do, and I fail to understand why an owner would use such a cruel and unnecessary 'tool' when positive, kind methods do work - even on big, unruly dogs.

pawsnclaws · 28/01/2011 18:27

We use a harness to walk our greyhound because we don't want him to slip his collar and lead, not to stop him pulling (he doesn't pull - he walks beautifully).

The two previous types of collar and lead we tried before he actually managed to slip easily (he obviously has a very small head) despite being on tightly. It's padded and he wears it over a coat anyway - very important it doesn't rub because he has such thin skin and no fat.

I saw a woman pulling a GSD puppy last weekend on a chain - the dog was literally being lifted off the ground.

Spanky100 · 28/01/2011 19:14

'the dog was literally being lifted off the ground'

I see this ALL the time. And have seen it done to pups before too.

OP posts:
Spanky100 · 28/01/2011 19:21

JasmineTom: I do my bit and probably a hell of a lot more than you do and using a choke chain is the least of my worries.

Very caring and compassionate of you.
How would you know you do more than me? You dont know anything about me.

OP posts:
Spanky100 · 28/01/2011 19:29

Oh also JasmineTom I don't know if your coming back or not but if so, sorry for my rudeness but you are talking out your arse!

A lot of these 'pedictable' staffies are rehomed with children and very gentle, they use the deadly pitpulls as therapy dogs in America.
You can't label an entire breed as dangerous.
Any dog has potential to be dangerous.
Even a dinky little jr.

You seriously think a choke chain controls akitas, rotties and the like and allows you to walk down a street?
Are you mad?!

I live near to an area where gangs own dogs like these all on chains and the chain don't make them any safer!!

Ever consider one of the reasons they might be so savage is because their moron owners choke them all time and actively encourage them to be vicious?

OP posts:
jasminetom · 29/01/2011 04:55

actually I am not particularly fond of choke chains as training aids, obviously not the most effective way to train a dog although can be useful in certain situations. I don't need one for any of my current dogs as they have been trained either by me or the army (who use choke chains). All I am saying is that, as I said before, a cricket bat in the hands of a cruel person is just as dangerous as a choke chain.
And, if you had read what I said properly, Staffies etc are often owned by stupid people who are not themselves trained and socialised.
There is more to life to get in such a flap over than bloody choke chains. Incidently do you confront the gangs and tell them they should be strung up?

Spanky100 · 29/01/2011 15:46

I don't think they are useful in any situation.
It was the tone of what you said that really irritated me.

A cricket bat might be but that doesn't mean a choke chain should be legal. The whole concept of using pain is wrong and there is so much evidence to suggest that choke chains cause damage even when correctly used that i don't see how anyone can realistically argue the benefits of their use.

I read what you said and you said predictable dogs like staffies and the only way to control an akita etc which is lumping a group of dogs together as the same.

This is an AIBU thread, people are on here for debate. Thats the whole point?

Yeah if i want to get shot!

OP posts:
MotherJack · 29/01/2011 16:46

I have a Staffordhsire Bull Terrier, Jasmine. She is a rescue dog, aged 9 and is lovely in every way. I have often said about certain Stafford owners that they are on the wrong end of the leash, but what is the difference between me owning her and a less desirable (for want of a better description!) owning her. They would hurt her with your idea of a suitable collar rather than train her. I would not. It's not a dog's fault who they end up with and they shouldn't be hurt by the collar they have to wear.

Happily, the majority of people I see with them, undesirable or not, know better than to buy a choke chain for them. Admittedly, some of them could do with a few less studs though Hmm