... to think not having sex before marriage is NOT the only measure of morality?

[woollyideas]

Re Big Fat Gypsy Wedding... keep reading that gypsies have 'high moral standards' because the girls don't have sex before marriage. AIBU to think that we should have more than a single measure of morality/immorality? I had sex before marriage but have never considered myself 'immoral'.

This is not a dig at gypsies (my grandfather was one!) but when I read bollix like 'Oh they're very moral because they don't have sex before marriage' I feel rather that we judge people morals on a single issue like this.

Has the world gone a bit Mary Whitehouse?

Morality is subjective. If you think your opinion of it is absolute and your personal morals should apply to the entire world you need to grow up and stope being so arrogant.

"A culture which puts a big premium on female virginity is an immoral culture, end of, because such a culture doesn;t regard women as human beings."

What if a woman chooses to be a virgin for religious reasons. Does it mean the religion is immoral? IMO a culture that puts a premium on femal virginity is not necessarily immoral as it depends on the other morals that are within the community.

Agree with butterbar - freedom to make the choice is key.

stereotyping is what most are doing on here.

tv progs normally show things that are extreme.

just because you dont believe in something doesnt mean its wrong

If a woman chooses to remain celibate or use her virginity as a deposit on a wedding ring then that's up to her, sure. The reason cultures that insist on it are inherently immoral is because they do not allow women freedom of choice. In these cultures (I am not singling out any single one BTW) women who want full human status and sexual autonomy are heavily penalised - including in some cases by being killed for not wishing to remain virgins until marriage.
That's why these cultures are immoral, barbaric and disgusting.
And the sooner the influence of television, the internet, rude books and raunchy music videos destroys and dilutes these cultures, the better.

I thought sex before marriage was no longer an issue generally in GB

I saw the previous big frock gypsy prog.
It was impressive. "Gabby"

Barbaric and disgusting I can agree with...immoral is a whole different ballgame.

You can't just throw out the 'none of you know fuck all' comment, Buzz - surely discussing these issues enlighten people to stuff they were previously unaware of?

discussing yes, but what happens on these numerous thread is either laughing at them or ranting about what a hideous culture it is. Neither of which help anyone to understand anything.

I disagree. I think it's a perfectly valid discussion. I watched that programme last night for the first time, and have read the various threads on it today - I haven't seen much laughing or ranting. More curiosity, which is why I watched the programme in the first place. How can people learn about cultural differences if they don't ask?

I'm not sure what threads you've been reading, most of the ones I've seen to based on "look at the stupid twats in their stupid dresses".

Thanks Stuffing. That's the point I was trying to make. Why are we being fed this line that people who don't have sex before marriage have 'high moral standards'?

Not just gypsies. Anyone. I'm not knocking celibacy as a 'lifestyle choice' but I thought the days of using virginity as currency, or as an indicator of morality had long gone.

The 'No sex before marriage' edict has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with the control of women. This is the same of any culture that places this contol - not just Travellers / Gypsies.

Exactly as SGB said.

gypsy and Morals in the same sentence..hahahahahahahahahaha good joke...

Morality is both personal and social thing accompanied by choice and social norms...

"Morality is subjective. If you think your opinion of it is absolute and your personal morals should apply to the entire world you need to grow up and stope being so arrogant."

Each individual doesn't create their own moral code in a vacuum. Much of it is inherited from their family and culture.

Where those 'morals' make people unhappy it is entirely appropriate to speak out against them.

Dunno why they bring up the whole morals thing as far as sex before marriage is concerned. It seems that it only applies to the girls and not the guys. That has less to do with morals, and smacks of a massive double standard imo.

As does saying "we don't have sex before marrige... but our DD's are alllowed to dress like tiny badly dressed tarts adults and gyrate like strippers to pop music."

To speak out on behalf of people that you do not know are unhappy or not, regardless of the fact that you actually know anything about the culture?

And you don't think thats a tiny bit arrogant?

And yes I judge anyone who allows their DC to dress the way many of those little girls were dressed. And happily watch them dance the way many of them were "dancing".

They're very moral

They have their morals and they stick to them

That is not to say your morals are wrong either: IMHO it's about adhering to whatever you believe is right

AS someone who performs a bit I cannot say the dresses botehred me that much but if they were new to you can understand it as well; dancing is pop star and nothing I woudl bother emulating but...

far more bothered about limitations on opportunities above housewife for girls, and the whole if you are seen with a man you are scanadlised crap. oh and yes sexual assault grabbing.

OK so they don't have sax before marrage but the minute it is legal to have sex they go and get married.
Isn't this just a bit backwards? they are committing themselves to one person from a very early age, and often to someone they have only known for a few months? does this strike anyone as strange?

'You intend to spend the rest of your life with a person, and you're going to do enter into this commitment with no idea whether you will have a mutually fulfilling love life? No one should be made to take that sort of gamble with their life.

Agree

Only decent bit of advice my motehr ever gave me in fact, that: don't buy until you try. A few.

I have a friend who originally comes from a Cork traveller family though is married out and has pretty much turned her back on all aspects of traveller culture.

She said that they do have sex before marriage once they become engaged. She was engaged to a complete prat the first time so then met her DH and also had sex with him pre marriage. She still considers herself to be quite virtuous compared to her non-traveller acquaintances.

MsBethel & Peachy - isn't the point that it should be each person's choice? I agree that virginity should not be used as currency but also that the 'try before you buy' ethos doesn't work for everyone either.
I didn't have sex before marriage - this wasn't a view forced on me - everyone else in my family lived together with their partner before marriage but I decided early on that I didn't want to. I got married young and it worked for me.
I don't think either of these choices should b seen as making you moral or immoral but I also don't think people should be judges as naive for choosing to wait.

Absolutely, I think you've got right to the nub of the matter.

If that's what you want for yourself, fine.

And I'm sure you'd agree that if you tried to pressure others into copying you, then that would be wrong.

It's people who use religion or cultural pressure to force their children/community down an adverse path them I object to. That's arrogant. That's immoral.