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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be upset that bullied DS1 is in detention because the bully made him....

43 replies

Solo2 · 21/01/2011 19:38

DS1, aged 9 feels he has no friends at present. Another boy, known widely to have behavioural challenges/ problems with aggression/ bullying/misbehaviour - has recently 'befriended' him. This has involved trying to coerce DS1 to give him money "or I won't be your friend anymore" or inciting him to various misbehaviours.

I warned the school about my concerns, last term, told them DS1 was unhappy and felt friendless and told them about the other child trying to get money off DS1 and bullying him. They said they'd 'keep an eye on things'.

Recently, DS1 has had quite a lot of time off school with v bad sickness and a heart problem (see Child Health MN) and has returned for now, feeling even more socially isolated.

The 'friend'/ bully has got him in his grasps again and told him to take something from a classroom yesterday and he complied and gave it to the 'friend'. 'Friend' then told his parents that 'DS1 stole X from the classroom'. Both children have confessed at school today. I emailed the form teacher to let him know the context - that it was because of DS1 being coerced and bullied and fearing he'd lose his only friend and was exactly what I'd feared all school year.

Form teacher didn't get the message till after the strict headmaster had seen my son and the 'friend' and told them off and put them in detention next week (one hr staying after school - which of course will affect me and DS2 as well, as we'll have to wait in the car outside.

I then went to see the head tonight, with form teacher to explain what was really going on, although obviously I don't condone DS1s behaviour. But it was rooted in his being bullied and coerced not because he, of his own volition, wanted to 'steal' and he's never ever done anything like that before.

Head acknowledged the context and also the trauma our family is currently going through with DS1 referred to hospital for heart problems, gastro problems and the nightmare time we well me, as I'm a single mum) had across Xmas and beyond.

However, he stands by the detention for both children. The form teacher has told me privately that he feels the head is being far too severe.

I am left feeling in conflict. I accept that DS1 must learn a) not to 'steal' (however small the object) under any circumstances or conditions and b) to stand up to bullying and coercion and say no....

But...I also feel, as a mother of a recently sick child (in tears tonight) who has missed school and feels friendless, that the context of the 'crime' should be considered. My 'motherly instinct' is to protest against the severity (detention is the worst punishment the school ever give out) of the punishment and claim that the issue to address is really how to help DS1 find friends and the self-confidence enough to say no to those who try to get you into trouble.

AIBU and lost in motherly protectiveness here and missing the need to punish misdemeanours, regardless of context, to give a clear message to everyone? I know I've been having a v worrying time recently and am more emotionally vulnerable/ reactive and not thinking clearly - but quite honestly, I could cry (and have Sad)

OP posts:
FabbyChic · 21/01/2011 19:44

Im so sorry for what you and your DS are going through.

Must be a really tough time for both of you.

Your son may well learn through the detention that taking something that is not his is a no no under any circumstances.

Why not ask him if there are children he likes at the school and talks to so you can invite them round for tea?

nickschick · 21/01/2011 19:45

If he was ill next week and couldnt go to school he couldnt do the detention could he? if the Gp would support you by saying the school day is long enough for a boy not in the best of health then that might help?.

I was in a similar situation years ago and I said 'well im not working in the afternoons if you want ds to stay behind after school unfortunately every day I will have an appointment that requires ds to leave school 15 minutes early.

Although sometimes I have to say sucking it up and accepting can get you a lot of respect from your child and the teachers involved.

coldtits · 21/01/2011 19:45

An hour after school every day would simply not be complied wityh by me if my child was a) 9 years old or b) had a heart problem.

Go in and collect him.

FabbyChic · 21/01/2011 19:47

The OP has not said it is every day. I am sure that they are not actually allowed to keep them that long anyway.

StarvingMarvin · 21/01/2011 19:48

I usually feel that as parents we should support and reinforce the schools decisions so that the children don't think it's ok for parents to over rule school, therefore losing respect for their teachers.

However, in your shoes I would inform the head that my child would not be attending an hour long after school detention. Way too harsh a punishment for a 9 year old, especially given the circumstances.

nickschick · 21/01/2011 19:48

You could say to ds that whilst school deems this the apropriate punishment you dont agree and therefore yes he must follow the school rules as life isnt all easy Sad but that if he does this without complaint you will treat him.

If you do decide to use this route ....make damn sure the head knows ds is having a treat Grin.

Poor ds x

zukiecat · 21/01/2011 19:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jellykat · 21/01/2011 20:03

This is a tricky one as i can completely understand how you feel, however the school has to be seen to punish bad behaviour..If you're DS1 gets a lighter punishment, then the bullies' parents may go in and complain, as in their eyes they both committed the act.

Can you let this one pass, and work on trying to sort things out for the future i.e talk to his form tutor, ask if your son can be seated away from the bully during lessons,do you know any of the other mums and DCs, could you invite them for tea or something to encourage other friendships..

Also is he at a new school-where are the friends he hung out with before this year?

diddl · 21/01/2011 20:09

TBH, I feel that he does deserve to be given the same amount of detention as the other boy.

Whether or not he should be forced to actually do it all do to his health is another matter.

cumfy · 22/01/2011 02:15

What was the item ?

I'd also be quite concerned that joint detention might reinforce the bond between them.

Appletrees · 22/01/2011 02:36

Echo what others have said: if he was mine he wouldn't go.

ChippingInSmellyCheeseFreak · 22/01/2011 02:42

I could cry for him too :(

I think the 'bully' should get a FAR harsher punishment, he should have the punishment that DS has had for the item being stolen, then another for the bullying.

I think if you mean by next week you mean one after school detention, that's fine - if you mean all week I would tell the Head that, no, he's not doing it - one yes, more no. He was a) bullied into it and b) he is not well.

The only reason I think you should allow/make DS do the one night is for his good, it is better he learns now that doing something wrong, is still wrong and that just because he was made/bullied/asked/coerced into it doesn't make it 'less wrong'. I think it will help him and while he's still young is a good time to learn that lesson.

Then I would be having serious words with the school about how you can both find ways for DS to make friends at school and lessen the opportunity for this little shit to bully DS. If they are in the same class - insist the bully is moved not DS.

Good Luck

MadamDeathstare · 22/01/2011 04:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

macdoodle · 22/01/2011 08:08

Are you absolutely sure about this. My daughter was accused of "making another child" do something. She adamantly denied it and I believe her. There are always 2 sides to a story.

Solo2 · 22/01/2011 08:38

Thanks for the feedback. Just to clarify, the detention will involve only one night late after school. I sort of can see that the head had to punish the crime whatever the circumstances and, reflecting on things overnight, I think the real issue for me is that the school have done nothing about what I told them back in Sept/ Oct that DS1 was finding it difficult to find friends this year - and, later, was being pulled into the control of the X - the 'bully' boy.

I hasten to add that I don't want to condemn, globally, this other child, who i know has problems. I just don't want his problems to adversely affect DS1 - who has difficulties of his own.

DS1 (and his twin) joined this school in Yr 3. The largest cohort in Yr 3 were from a feeder pre-prep and DCs came from the second largest feeder pre-prep. DS1 up to that point and beyond was the one of my twins who was great at making friends. He was popular and happy, socially.

He made a new friend who'd come fresh to the school and was v involved with him that yr. Day 1 of Yr four, this new friend inexplicably 'dropped' DS1 - i think for all kinds of reasons like DS1 isn't into macho sports, that little boy - unusual for this school - came from a v v v rich background (literally country mansion etc and parents wealthy enough not to have to work ) and DS1 is from a single parent family with me struggling to pay school fees - but managing.

DS1 then was befriended by a big gang of children who'd been at the feeder pre-prep that has most children going to this prep. He had a great class teacher who helped friendships on their way (she then became head of pastoral care but is now on long term sick). I never worried re. DS1 and friends till this yr, Yr 5.

Each yr, the school remixes the three classes for each yr group. DS1 was with many of his 'friends' from last yr but for one reason or another, they'd drifted off. One friend from Yr 4 who's been very into drama and dance (like DS1) had dropped this in favour of macho football and rugby. A massive majority of the boys were and are obsessed with table tennis and this is where the problem really began.

A majority of those DS1 would have called friends last yr play constant table tennis on the school tables every single break. DS1 doesn't mind the occasional game but isn't good at this and isn't that interested. Most of the boys are v good at it and v into it. DS1 wanted to do other things but had no one to do those things with.

DS1 doesn't fit with the other group of boys - what you might call geeky swots - whereas this is the group his twin is in and he resents his brother sometimes walking round with what DS2 calls 'his friends' to talk about stuff of interest. (DS1 likes science like these boys do). DS2 has Asperger's traits that makes him fit with this similar group of children but also makes him v possessive of his 3 friends (he's happy to have only these three and that's it!)

DS1 was then left to wander round alone, as a few other boys do - including the child X ('bully'). Child X comes from the big feeder school cohort but has been more or less ostracised over years since age 3 by those children because of his behavioural issues and aggression.

So child X has told DS1 that he's his only friend - thus making DS1 feel special and wanted, as DS1 now feels he has no other friends.

But what can I, as a parent, do about this, other than continue to try to enable other friendships outside of school with his school mates? I've tried this and DS1 is v v reluctant to invite any back - although there's bene one boy - who's not in his class, where we've exchanged playdates a few times. This boy is fickle (as most may be at this age) with friendships and can be physically aggressive and is unusally tall and big - so towers above small, skinny DS1 hugely. He also love table tennis and football which DS1 doesn't.

They've now drifted apart a bit too. so DS1 is left with child X - who is incredibly charming, extremely clever and, were he an adult, would fit exactly the profile of a higly intelligent psychopath - in so far as he seems to enjoy controlling and hurting others, getting others into trouble and being extremely good at lying.

Long ago, pre-school, we used to mix with child X and his family when my sons were about 2 to 4 but I pulled away because the mum of child X felt that DS2's Asperger's traits would give a bad example to her 'perfect' son Biscuit and also because child X got DS1, back then, to gang up against DS2 and got his little sister to do the same and the mum did nothing to prevent this or intervene - just blamed poor DS2. I also found child X's father's use of physical chastisement with chid X, his son, worrying and so stopped contact with the family.

I knew all about Child X well in advance therefore and from Yr 3 on have been worried that he'll get his grip on DS1 or bully DS2. He actually aggressed all the children in Yr 3, settled a bit in yr 4 but now scearly has his grip on DS1 and my worst fears are now realised.

Can the school really do anything practical about any of this? Without wanting to be genderist, the main teachers involved - DS1s form teacher (who actually doesn't teach DS1 for any lessons and barely knows him or sees him but supposedly coordinates his care) and the Head - are both male and don't seem v good at listening and understanding the isse. Form teacher is v v young and in his first teaching post and v inexperienced and I don't think has a clue about social subtleties. Headmaster is hugely unpopular with staff who've been leaving left right and cetnre since he started 4 yrs ago but is quite 'charming' with parents and excellent at 'selling the school'.

Incidentally, the theft was of a box of matches from the science lab. DS1 LOVES science and the science teacher and would never have contemplated stealing from anyone but especially not from her, on his own. DS1 knows to respect matches but has used them under close supervision at home with me, so they don't have a 'special 'forbidden fruit' aura around them. Child X has previously brought matches into school - which were confiscated, superglue and glued children's desks down in yr 3, stole a bike and rode off alone from school etc etc. Surely the school must realise that the idea of taking the matches was child x's?

What can I expect the teachers to do about any of this? There are so many children and so many v new teachers here. the head of pastoral care is on long term sick and the form teacher - who should be our first pot of call, is inexperienecd and rarely sees DS1 anyway. child X is in the same class and the school never swop children to different classes in the middle of the year.

I still feel v sad for DS1 and v worried and have been awake since 1.30am worrying about it all.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 22/01/2011 08:43

I think I would support the punishment. Stealing is wrong regardless of whether someone told you to do it or not and the right thing for your boy to do was to say 'no' and report it to a teacher, however hard that would have been.

The other children might see your DS 'getting away with it' because 'he's ill', and that might not be great for him either.

But if the extra long day will affect his health, perhaps you could negotiate that the detention be served over a couple of lunchtimes instead?

It will also give your DS a get-out to refuse any future orders 'I can't, my mum will kill me if I get another detention'.

CrosswordAddict · 22/01/2011 09:03

Sorry for you in your trouble.
I feel you both need a fresh start.
You have spent a long time posting this when you could have been looking at a new school. So much baggage here now that your son will feel resentful and bitter about school whatever the outcome. Can you feel confident about this school in the future? The staff set-up doesn't sound very conducive to learning does it?
This bully will follow him up the school and the whole saga will just go on and on IMO.
Sorry to sound negative but I think you need to walk away from this one.

Myleetlepony · 22/01/2011 09:12

The school has a statutory responsibility to have a pupil discipline policy, which includes their anti-bullying policy. Ask for a copy. Look and see if you think it is being followed. Make an appointment with the head and class teacher to discuss how they are going to deal with this situation, and how they will be applying the policy.
If you are not happy then ask for a copy of their complaints procedure and follow it, which is really easy.
I don't agree that you should change school, what happens if a similar situation arises. Just bear in mind that any problems the school has with sickness absence etc are not your problem, you need to focus on the fact that they have to discharge their responsbilities re bullying.

thankgod4cbeebies · 22/01/2011 09:28

Oh dear. Poor you, sounds like you really have got yourself worked up over this!
First, I think you need to distract yourself- take your DS's swimming or to the park or something being as you're up and about anyway :). Secondly, get a good nights sleep tonight and get things into perspective.

What you're going through is, I'm afraid, the age old problem of your offspring associating with others who (for what sounds to be good reasons), you disapprove of.

I think you have done pretty much all you can in relation to the school by informing them of the situation as you see it, but remember that it is always possible that child X and his parents have a different view of the situation.

As a one off, and as long as his health is up to it, I would bite the bullet and accept the detention. In the longer term though, I think all you can really do is help your DS to make friends by encouraging him to join stuff, helping to build up his confidence, self esteem etc.(Maybe even get hold of a child psychology book aimed at helping parents to help their kids make friends?) I'd also be tempted to not go overboard on your criticism of child X in ear shot of DS, as this may only prove to make the relationship with the 'rebel' child more attractive to DS.

brightlightsandpromises · 22/01/2011 09:36

Just read the first post so apologies if i miss anything.

I am really sorry that your DS is poorly just now and i hope that you get everything sorted out.

I can totally understand why you feel protective and why you feel that it is being unfair to your DS.

BUT i think the punishment should stand tbh. Simply because it might make him think twice about being lead into trouble by this other boy. At the end of the day, this other boy coerced your DS but he could have said no - yes, i know that would have been extremely difficult and most probably wouldn't. But the detention will make him think and next time the other boy tries to get him into trouble your DS may just think, err no, i don't think so mate!

brightlightsandpromises · 22/01/2011 09:44

with regards to the damaging friendship - at my DDs school they mix up the two year clsses each year. This helps the children mix and not get to cliquey with one child and also helps the school to intervene if friendships are not healthy without it being obvious that one child or another is being separated. I was a bit Hmm about this at first but it is actually a good thing. I would request that your DS and this lad are separated next year. Some children just set each other off you know.

You can also try and cultivate new friendships for your DS by befriending other mums and setting up the dreaded playdates - it does work, the children see each other out of school so have a connection.

Best of luck with all the medical stuff, horrible for you all xx

tomhardyismydh · 22/01/2011 09:51

Im not sure 1 hr after school is appropriate for either child at 9. I would not support this, but do see that both boys need to be punished.

You need to talk to the school about your worries.

try to get it out of your head for the rest of the weekend as you are very very wound up over this and its easy to lose perspective.

You need to help your son to find some assertion and realise that he can have friendships from these boys in his class.

Solo2 · 22/01/2011 09:51

Thanks again. DCs are off for a four hour school-related 'scouts' type thing today - where Child X will also be participating unfortunately. Child X had been excluded after the first of these monthly activities because he hit a child over the head with a stick but has recently been allowed to return..

I've talked to DS1 about who he might partner today but at the end of the day, the teachers/ leaders decide who goes with who. I've warned him that this group is even more 'tough' on bad behaviour and that even if they think he's been part of something with child x, they'll bar him too. So he must be v v careful.

Beyond that and suggesting a few other boys he could try to pair up with, not sure what I can do. Both DCs adore this activity.

At the moment, whilst I certainly have contemplated taking the DCs away from this school, for vatious reasons this would be the last option, although certainly an option at that.

The key for me is how to help DS1 gain confidence in himself and I've also just talked to him a few moments ago about how really good friends are those who don't get you into trouble, aren't 'fickle' and will enjoy many of the things he likes as well and that those friends might still be people he hasn't 'realised as friends' just yet.

Regarding the school, I think I'm going to try to think of some very specific and practical suggestions to put in writing to the school that might help DS1 feel more confident and popular again. I haven't yet thought of those things but hope I will....

I do feel I need to put something in writing though, even if it's just to help the teachers remember the situation. I'm sure teachers like all of us need specific goals. But what exactly can I suggest...?

In Yrs 3 and 4, the head of pastoral care proactively set up some lunchtime activities for children being ostracised/ socially isolated. In her absence, perhaps I could suggest something similar but of course I can't enforce teachers to take time out to supervise those activities.

Not sure if I should also talk to the parents of child x, if/ when I see them today, and suggest that it might be of mutual benefit to our DCs to enable them to find other friends for now in case, "both are getting the other into trouble"....

OP posts:
brightlightsandpromises · 22/01/2011 10:05

"In Yrs 3 and 4, the head of pastoral care proactively set up some lunchtime activities for children being ostracised/ socially isolated. In her absence, perhaps I could suggest something similar but of course I can't enforce teachers to take time out to supervise those activities."

You are right, we all need our lunch breaks etc otherwise we would be ineffective for the rest of the day. Would you possibly be able to volunteer to help with somehing like this?

catwalker · 22/01/2011 10:05

One hour does seem harsh for a 9 year old. But I do think it's important to learn a lesson and this might help him avoid being coerced in the future. Could you say to the school that, as they have not done anything to stop this situation developing, you are prepared to accept that your son should do the detention, on condition that during that hour you can meet the head to discuss what the school is going to do to tackle your son's problems?

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