To be upset that bullied DS1 is in detention because the bully made him....

[Solo2]

DS1, aged 9 feels he has no friends at present. Another boy, known widely to have behavioural challenges/ problems with aggression/ bullying/misbehaviour - has recently 'befriended' him. This has involved trying to coerce DS1 to give him money "or I won't be your friend anymore" or inciting him to various misbehaviours.

I warned the school about my concerns, last term, told them DS1 was unhappy and felt friendless and told them about the other child trying to get money off DS1 and bullying him. They said they'd 'keep an eye on things'.

Recently, DS1 has had quite a lot of time off school with v bad sickness and a heart problem (see Child Health MN) and has returned for now, feeling even more socially isolated.

The 'friend'/ bully has got him in his grasps again and told him to take something from a classroom yesterday and he complied and gave it to the 'friend'. 'Friend' then told his parents that 'DS1 stole X from the classroom'. Both children have confessed at school today. I emailed the form teacher to let him know the context - that it was because of DS1 being coerced and bullied and fearing he'd lose his only friend and was exactly what I'd feared all school year.

Form teacher didn't get the message till after the strict headmaster had seen my son and the 'friend' and told them off and put them in detention next week (one hr staying after school - which of course will affect me and DS2 as well, as we'll have to wait in the car outside.

I then went to see the head tonight, with form teacher to explain what was really going on, although obviously I don't condone DS1s behaviour. But it was rooted in his being bullied and coerced not because he, of his own volition, wanted to 'steal' and he's never ever done anything like that before.

Head acknowledged the context and also the trauma our family is currently going through with DS1 referred to hospital for heart problems, gastro problems and the nightmare time we well me, as I'm a single mum) had across Xmas and beyond.

However, he stands by the detention for both children. The form teacher has told me privately that he feels the head is being far too severe.

I am left feeling in conflict. I accept that DS1 must learn a) not to 'steal' (however small the object) under any circumstances or conditions and b) to stand up to bullying and coercion and say no....

But...I also feel, as a mother of a recently sick child (in tears tonight) who has missed school and feels friendless, that the context of the 'crime' should be considered. My 'motherly instinct' is to protest against the severity (detention is the worst punishment the school ever give out) of the punishment and claim that the issue to address is really how to help DS1 find friends and the self-confidence enough to say no to those who try to get you into trouble.

AIBU and lost in motherly protectiveness here and missing the need to punish misdemeanours, regardless of context, to give a clear message to everyone? I know I've been having a v worrying time recently and am more emotionally vulnerable/ reactive and not thinking clearly - but quite honestly, I could cry (and have )

brightlightsandpromises - whilst I understand that the teachers need a break, it is really not going to help her son if she is going in at lunchtime to run this - the kids would make mincemeat of him.

Solo - I would have a chat to the people running this today and ensure DS was not partnered with X and explain you have been having issues and would like them kept as far apart as possible.

I think your best course of action is to be quite firm with DS1 and tell him that x gets him into trouble and you DoNot want him hanging around with him even if he appears to be the only one free at breaktimes. Tell him he needs to find other friends OR amuse himself - go to the library, take in something he's allowed to do, go to the field and see if he can join in a kick around etc Explain that he might find a friend in a year group older or younger than himself... but tha HE needs to get involved, not wait to be asked etc Int he nicest possible way, I feel like you are enabling his isolation by molly coddling him and not just telling him to get out there and find other friends (they cannot all be playing TT) and arming him with ways to do so. He may even be better off playing TT every day for a week or so until he finds someone else just playing it for something to do so they aren't alone.

Of course - it may just be how your post comes across and you may be doing this already - it just didn't sound like it.

I hope he gets it sorted x

If you get nowhere with the school, can't you just move DS1 and leave DS2 there where he is happy. I am sure there is something you can do re drop offs/pick ups.

Chipping, i know what you mean and thought the very same thing just now.

We have a similar situation with two boys at DDs school, the mums are very reasonable about and know their boys set each other off and do their best to avoid situations where they are forced together, and it works. I would propose talking to the other parents, just have to be a bit diplomatic and not say its their son leading your lad astray, else you will put their backs up and that could lead to problems. If they are reasonable they may well be able to intervene.

I would support the detention. Stealing a box of matches is serious.

You are right to follow things up more pro-actively with the school and ask about the possibility of a lunch time club for those who are finding the playground and friendships difficult. Sometimes there are members of staff with fewer class contact hours who can jiggle around their breaks.

It must be horrible for him being stuck for 6 hours a day in a place where he doesn't feel welcome (and possibly not safe), especially watching his brother thrive.

How different it would be for him (and probably his brother) to be at a school where the philosophy 'everyone can play' is encouraged and adhered to.

This is a basic requirement imo, and it doesn't sound as if it's being fostered there, with all the talk of aggression, factions and competitiveness (they're nine!)

Doesn't sound like a 'kind' environment to me - I'd be looking to move.

(Btw, ime private schools can have idiosyncratic ways with discipline and pastoral care; sometimes exceeding requirements for state schools, often falling short of them).

Well, I ensured thet DS1 was partnered with a different boy for today, although he may still end up in the same larger group as child x.

I also made a point of talking to Child X's dad who'd dropped him off - just a friendly chat, acknowledging the awfulness of what both our sons had done etc. I did however say that DS1 has never done anything like that before but he said "not that you've found out about - they ALL do this though". He clearly has no sense at all that his son has been bullying and controlling DS1 and feels like they're equally in it together.

I talked about how we might get the school to support proactive channelling of all the children's energies into constructive activities that wouldn't give them time to think about doing wrong. I didn't say at all that I felt it was child x's fault nor anything about the bullying.

My feeling is that child x's parents may have told him to keep away from DS1 - which is of course fine by me too and it doesn't really matter if they believe it was DS1 who did the leading, as everyone else in the school knows that child x has had issues well pre-dating this and that DS1 is usually at the very very worst, slightly overtalkative and mischievous but has never been involved in anything of this calibre in his life.

I wish i could think of a specific activity to suggest to the school that DS1 could engage in at breaktimes, where there's a constructive focus for his particular interests and where the school could enable other children to be part of this and give DS1 a feeling that he had friends...

Hello,

have been in a similar situation with my DS (y3). He has a friend/bully who "makes" him do things.

I have had to have a few chats with DS to explain that you should not allow somebody to make you do things you do not want to. Also that YOU are still responsible for your actions, even if you are coerced into them.

I think it is very important for children to learn about this kind of pressure and how to deal with it (after all, parents cannot step in all the time).

I would let him do the punishment, have a good chat, and as it is out of character, I am sure it will not happen again.

It is also good to have a chat about a "friend" who likes getting you into trouble, and whether that is a REAL friend.

I am disappointed with the pastoral care in your school. My DS goes to a small state school, and the teacher and special needs teacher (my DS has a socio-emotional IEP and some extra help)have a project where each week DS plays a board game with a group of other children, to aid his social skills (nobody knows this is for the benefit of my DS, so he is not singled out iykwim) . Also, there is a buddy-stop at the playground where you go if you have nobody to play with, and the buddy monitor (other child) will get you involved in a game others are playing (help you to socialise). And also, partly it has to come from DS himself who has to learn really how to make friends.

I have a meet-up with teacher to discuss his progress twice very term.

I think your school could and should do more. I would go and have a talk where you try to make a sort of plan, like we have with our DS

Also, my DS does better at this state primary than he did at the big prep, because he is so shy and not sporty, and at the little state school he does not feel overwhelmed. There is a wider variety of children, some sporty, some arty, some techy, the "culture" suits him better. Also, as teh school is small, all teachers know my DS and I feel they look out for him which is nice.

How lovely, Chandon. What a brillaint idea as well. I wonder if the school would be amenable to something like this - where a Yr 6 (top yr) child - or two - is appointed as a buddy and enables children like DS1 to engage in some game.

I've decided to go in (once the detention is over, which DS1 will just have to do) and make some suggestions along those lines to the school.

the other thing I've wished for SO long is that there was poractive help to integrate the boys with the girls. This prep is newly co-ed and the school has bent over backwards to welcome girls but has then given them special privileges/ treatment that has furtehr alienated the boys (who remain in the majority). If someone could do more to engage both genders in joint activities, i think this would help everyone and especially boys like DS1 who aren't that advanced with social skills.

Honestly - the place sounds truly awful. You don't say what your reasons are for sticking with it, but I can tell you that the feeling of relief when you no longer have to say 'it's a good school, but..' is immense.

You'll only realise how bad it is when you start to look at what else is available.

the school never swop children to different classes in the middle of the year

There's always a 1st time.
If you feel it would be a solution, show this thread to the head.

solo

I also think a bit too much is being made of this by some people, they stole something (it doesn't matter what that something was) most children do something like that at their age - whether it's a penny chew (hark my age) a pencil or something out of the classroom... it's not like they have been caught smoking behind the bike shed :) It's really not 'something of this calibre' and it's disappointing etc, but not the end of the world x

Exactly - sense of proportion seems to be lacking.

Yes. I also felt that giving both children the worst punishment that you can get at this school was rather OTT given they're only 9 and also there shouldn't have been a box of matches left lying around a classroom anyway.

I thought something like giving each a 'minus point' (you need 6 minus points to get a detention) and having to apologise to the science teacher and perhaps help her tidy the lab would have been enough. They DID apologise to her.

Both volunteered their wrongdoing - so no one would have known about it if they hadn't decided to tell on themselves. I felt that not enough credit was given for their honesty, although it was mentioned by the headmaster.

As it is, this is a really big deal at school to get a detention and of course lots of the other childrne now know - but obviously don't know that DS1 was coerced into it. So they'll have told their parents in shock and awe who will most probably now begin to think that DS1 and Child X are part of a 'package' of trouble to be avoided - and this may make it even harder for DS1 to get playdates/ friends....

If DS1 came up to me spontaneously at homw to tell me he'd done something wrong and was sorry, I think I'd have been v pleased he'd confessed without prompting and foucsed a lot on this rather than just dwelt on the wrongdoing.

Hate to bang on, but you're paying for the privilege...

Solo - I really don't know how to say this kindly - but it's meant with love... you are really, really over thinking this. You are getting into a right state over 2 kids trying to see if they can get away with pinching something small. One of them trying to see what he can 'make' the other one do and the other one not being strong enough to say 'No'.

I don't know if you are going through a really tough time with other stuff or whether this school has you feeling this way or what - but honest to god, it's a box of bloody matches they've taken out of a classroom. They didn't set the school on fire - yet you, the school and from what you say the other children/parents seem to think it deserves this much drama.

We can't 'score' the punishment for you because we don't know what 'value' of a minus point is - do you get one for your shoe laces being undone or do you have to kick someone to get one (see what I mean?) but to get the school worst punishment for this? It doesn't sound like the kind of school I'd want my kids at. Far too uptight.

Either you are really over-reacting to the situation OR you need to move schools....

Honestly, it's not normal :(

Chipping...the wider context IS probably making this much more emotional for me than it should. The wider context is that over the last 3 to 4 weeks, there has been a medical crisis with DS1 who has recently been diagnosed with an abnormal heartbeat and recurrent vomiting and was off sick for over a week from school, follwoing 3 weeks of us all being sick with a flu thing right across Xmas - V stressful and disappointing, as Xmas was 'cancelled'.

The school knows that DS1 is waiting further hospital consultations re. his heart (24 hr ECg monitor, heart scan) and his gastric problem - which is life long and means he vomtis about 16 times each of about 18 times a year average.

The even wider context to this is that all Yr 5, DS1 hasn't been happy socially or achieving academically. It's within THIS context that the school knows about that DS2 has been given the worst punishment simply for complying with a bully.

Naturally, I am in less than a calm, stable state myself, as I've had flu for 4 weeks myself, also been up for 5 to 6 nights and days with DS1 when he was v ill, culminating in a night long stint with him and DS2 at A & E, as well as trying to run my f/t business and manage DS1's twin who has Asperger's traits.

That's why I posted on the AIBU forum because I'm aware that keeping things in perspective, given the two main contexts - ill child and unhappy child - has been hard at this time.

Many thanks for all the balanced feedback in a - by nature - controversial/provocative forum of MN.

I guess if the incident and detention had simply happened in a normal context, where a happy and healthy but mischievous little boy has stepped over the mark, of his own volition, where the family had just had 3 weeks relaxing holiday break, I - as mum - would probably have had a few moments of chagrin and then let it be. The wider context primed my OP and I now have some useful feedbak to process and act on, as I drag myself, kicking and screaming, from the brink of a haggard middle-aged woman on the verge of a nervous breakdown (said tongue in cheek and trying to laugh at my current challenges)

It sounds like you have had a lot to deal with lately.

I have to agree with the school that stealing should be punished. For yourself, you wouldnt want this to escalate, and your DS will learn that he will get punished for doing bad things - hopefully this will help him resist the bully eg " I/we dont want to get into detention again".

Could you ask the school to make sure they dont do the detention together? Are there school clubs your DS would enjoy, or out of school clubs?

Solo - I don't know about DS1, it's you I'd quite like to sit on my knee and cuddle till you fall asleep! :(

I think the school sounds far too up its own arse for my liking and that DS1 would benefit from a different environment, but I'd leave DS2 there as he's happy - but that's from the outside without all of the info.

I hope you can spend the rest of the weekend just being with the kids x

An update, if anyone's interested. I have now received the formal letter from the headmaster regarding the detention and crime with a severe verbal reprimand. The form teacher also has to fill in part of the form and at least alludes to DS1's need to leanr to tell a teacher if another child tells him to do something he doesn't want to do.

It feels frighteningly official really! The Deputy Head allowed me to pick one of two possible evenings for the detention to take place but strongly encouraged me to pick the one on which DS1 has his favourite after school club so that he'd also be punished by missing this as well.

I'm afraid I chose the other evening, as DS1 has been in tears all w/e about the whole situation anyway and I don't think he needs even more punishment for being so desperate to have a friend that he weakly goes along with what the friend tells him to do.

On a brighter note, I'm meeting with the form teacher and deputy head, having suggested that the school could think of doing something proactive to help DS1 find friends and 'be his own man' rather than letting himself be coerced by a bully. they've said they have 'some ideas' about how to help him. So I'm hopeful.

I intend to reiterate what I told them last term about the other child trying to bully DS1 into giving him money in order to retain the friendship and talking endlessly about wanting to blow up/ burn down the school. If they'd acted then to help out DS1 escape from the other child's influence, I'm sure the misdemeanour would never have happened.

DS1 doesn't at all want to leave the school, Chipping... He loves some of the extra-curricular activities they do, feels familiar in this environment, HAS had past friends here, except this year and there isn't an obvious second choice school locally for him him anyway.

I'm still left feeling irked that DS1 is being punished for not having the maturity at 9 yrs old to stand up to a bully and to accept feeling alone, ostracised but staying well-behaved rather than befriended but bullied and led into trouble. I'm also still cross that the school did nothing when I warned them that something like this would happen last term but have reacted with the severest punishment to DS1 when he continued to give in to a bully.

They've said he should have told a teacher but his and his peers developmental stage is that "you don't tell on anyone, no matter what", no matter how many anti-bullying messages they hear.