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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that having a British translation of a foreign country or city name is nonsence?

139 replies

SlightlyJaded · 19/01/2011 21:42

The 'Pav-a-lova' thread got me twitching about this again. It really annoys me because I don't understand why we do it, but am happy to be put right by a know all wiser person than me.

So why do we feel the need to have a British translation for the name of a foreign country or city? What's would have been wrong with calling Spain Espana or Munich Munchen? To me its an utter nonsense, you are not translating from an existing known word in one language to an existing known word in another language - someone has gone to the trouble of making up a completely new and meaningless word loosely based on a word that cannot be translated as it is a naming noun.

Equally mad in reverse - other countries inventing 'names' for the United Kingdom.

OP posts:
sarahitaly · 20/01/2011 01:32

"The same is probably true the other way around: foreigners have difficulty saying English place names, "

Which is why they rename them. London to Londra for eg.

aurynne · 20/01/2011 02:55

jessiealbright, I am Spanish, and find that both Maori language (from New Zealand natives) and the Aboriginal language (from Australia) sometimes have words which are really funny in my mother tongue...

Some years ago I visited the Australian Northern Territories. There are many places which are sacred for the Aborigenes. One of them is called "Mala puta". In aboriginal language it means something like "fertile womb". Our guide noticed I was trying not to laugh. In Spanish it means "bad whore".

The Maori word for the article "the" is "te", which in Spanish is a pronoun referring to "you". Close to where I live there is a clinic called "Te Mata" Clinic... which in Spanish means "It kills you" (not a clinic I would choose if I was ill). Not too far from that one, there is another one called "Te Kura" clinic, to which I would be much more attracted if I need care... as it means "It heals you" in Spanish.

There are also funny connotations in some Maori words for English speakers... In Maori, "wh" is pronouned as "f". Imagine the fun when you live in "Whakapapa".

cumbria81 · 20/01/2011 06:05

Speaking of Chinese people choosing English words as names, I once worked with a student who decided she wanted her English name to be "Easy".

I had to carefully explain why introducing herself with "hello, I'm Easy" might not be the best idea..

beijingaling · 20/01/2011 06:21

Actually Beijing is simply Beijing. Bei meaning north jing meaning capital. Peking was always the foreigner translation if I recall. Might be different in other Chinese languages but this is true for mandarin Chinese (the official language and the language used in Beijing. Cantonese is also an official language but used in the south and not the 'government' language)

Chinese is interesting actually because they have a character based system and a phonetic system for stupid foreigners

Some countries are Pronounced phonetically and the word has no meaning such as Australia which is said like ow-da-lee-ah. Others have meaning but I can't think of an example. Think america might mean foreigner but I'm too sleep deprived to remember.

beijingaling · 20/01/2011 06:22

Also on Chinese names I once taught a 'key' and a 'doorbell' and a 'tiny' who was 6'5" Hmm

NickL · 20/01/2011 07:33

I remember listening to a programme on Radio not so long ago where the BBC interviewer refered to Mumbai while the interviewee (an Indian living in said city) used Bombay throughout.

kreecherlivesupstairs · 20/01/2011 09:54

I've always been confused about the Derry/Londonderry thing. I understand what it's about but puzzled by why it has never been standardised.
When we lived in Thailand, I really struggled with pronunciation. The language has five tones so one word can mean five different things.
I remember asking a taxidriver to take me to Soi 42 which is see nong in Thai. I tried and tried and tried. DD said it once and he beamed. She is clearly (and demonstrably) better at languages than me Blush

BuzzLightBeer · 20/01/2011 10:01

It can't really be standardised, Derry is used in Ireland and by nationalists in Northern Ireland, Londonderry is used by unionists. Its technically has been standardised as Londonderry if you are talking about the city, though you couldn't pay nationalists enough to use that term.

jessiealbright · 20/01/2011 12:12

Beijingaling Ah, I'm wrong again.

I love mumsnet- I learn so much here.

jessiealbright · 20/01/2011 12:21

aurynne Oh dear!

Well, I've now resolved never to move abroad until I've dealt with my little problem of inappropriate laughter and learnt to assume a poker face at will!

duchesse · 20/01/2011 12:22

These are my pet bugbears:

Lyons- Aaaaargh!!!!

Algiers, (and Tangiers for that matter) which may be a better transliteration from Arabic for all I know, but rankles when the French is Alger.

Florence- why? That's not what it's called ffs.

There are more. It's more understandable I suppose with countries where the language is difficult to pronounce or is in another script (eg Peking, Bombay etc...). But then in the end who's to say that a European language is more "familiar" than one from a country further away.

FindingStuffToChuckOut · 20/01/2011 12:47

It's not a British thing - when you go to non-English speaking countries they all have their own name for England/Britain/London whatever.

It's language based rather than country based. I like it, it's local, not mass globalisation which what you are suggesting would be an example of.

so YABU Smile

MotherMountainGoat · 20/01/2011 12:50

I'm confronted with the question of naming places quite a lot at work - as a translator and editor - and generally I would look for official sources in making my decision. The city's own website, for instance, which is often translated into English. Some dictionaries (eg Oxford Spelling Dictionary) also give recommendations for place names, as does the Encylopedia Britannica.

If we have an English name for a foreign city or country, it will be because centuries ago consistency wasn't as important. If a name was difficult to pronounce, and was important for trade or political reasons, people would say the nearest approximation to that, until that name became official in writing too. The separate name only remains if the city keeps its importance, on the whole, because people can't be arsed to remember a name that they won't need. Munich people know because it's a big city, but who knows nowadays that Braunschweig used to be Brunswick? Who cares?

Names in Asia and Celtic countries are reverting back to the original languages as a statement that they have overcome their colonial history. Beijing is pretty well accepted these days as the official term, whereas Mumbai/Bombay is more mixed, and I don't think the BBC uses Kolkata for Calcutta, even though that is used by the (marxist) city government, I believe (must check...).

It gets interesting with the names for Burma/Myanmar. The UK refuses to recognise Myanmar because it does not acknowledge the military regime, and thus the BBC uses Burma. Yet on German news the country is called Myanmar, because it is one of many countries that does recognise the system.

Anyone interested in the politics of name changing should read/go to see Brian Friel's Translations, which deals with the anglicisation of Irish names in the 19th century.

peanutbutterkid · 20/01/2011 13:01

yabu, what FindingStuff said, really.
London is really hard to spell phonetically in Spanish, whereas "Londres" just works.

Proud of myself for saying Varshava correctly, it doesn't really trip off the English-speakers tongue as well as Warsaw (shrug).

Mymblesson · 20/01/2011 13:09

This is an interesting subject for me. Having a Polish wife we visit Poland a lot and place names there are quite difficult to pronounce until you get used to them.

For example:

Wroclaw - Vrotswav

Lodz - Woodge

And don't even get me started on Szczedrzeszyn.

FindingStuffToChuckOut · 20/01/2011 13:19

Mymblesson I have the same problem in Wales Grin

peanutbutterkid · 20/01/2011 13:19

I love "Vrotswav" and many other Polish words, but they are mind-bending to learn to say, English speakers can't even hear some of the sounds in other languages, we are never going to consistently say them right :)

Mymblesson · 20/01/2011 13:34

English speakers can't even hear some of the sounds in other languages, we are never going to consistently say them right

I can speak some Polish, but my accent and pronunciation is dreadful. Even our 4 year old son tells me off: "You don't say it like that, Daddy!" Smile

reup · 20/01/2011 14:30

I think it's really I interesting why some foreign words do get incorporated into english and others don't. Things like food spaghetti pizza capuccino sushi. Although in the fifties my mum said it was always called frothy coffee. Global brand names too. Oil of okay used to be ulay. But why was the product never the same name originally? I can understand if it's an odd word eg the used to have a brand of crisps in spain called bum.

Also the Irish prime minister is always called the Irish name of the news but we don't translate other countries heads of state.

I used to work in tv news and they had to change what they called the royalty in cambodia as they had been calling him prince prince.

QuintessentialShadows · 20/01/2011 15:56

oh dear Ayrunne, reminds me, somebody suggested I name my first son Vassiliki to honour my classics degree.... In Norwegian that sounds like "wading through corpses".

edam · 20/01/2011 19:57

I can manage to at least make a stab at Welsh place names such as Betws y Coed as my Dad's Welsh and I spent a lot of time there as a child. But that's North Wales - the South Welsh, darn them, have a different way of speaking/pronouncing and even entirely different words for the same thing e.g. money/cash (arian in one, IIRC, forget the other). Think arian is now taking over as it's on the cashpoints?

aurynne · 20/01/2011 23:02

QuintessentialShadows, your last post has made me snort... not very smart when you're having a cup of coffee in front of the computer...

Want a very funny language misunderstanding between Spanish and English politicians?

Our current president, Zapatero, was arriving to a European meeting. Let me start by saying Zapatero speaks barely any English at all. He looked a bit worse for wear, so one of the other politicians (don't remember which one) politely asked about his health.

Zapatero replied: "No problem, I am just a bit constipated"

Cue uncomfortable looks all over the meeting table, which featured presidents, primer ministers and all the sort.

In Spanish, to be "constipado" means "to have a cold".

ratspeaker · 20/01/2011 23:33

What findingstuff said

In France I have to say je suis ecossais, mon mari est gallois

oh and England is Angleterre

JaneS · 21/01/2011 00:03

Oh, I love names in different languages. I know someone who studies this and she can look at a map of the UK and tell you exactly where different groups of settlers came from by looking at the languages the different villages were named using.

Besides which, seeing or hearing place names in another language is all the foreign language learning some of us do, if we're abroad - let's not lose it!

muminlondon · 21/01/2011 00:32

I love names of famous people in other languages. Laurel and Hardy are known as El Gordo y el Flaco in Spanish, Dick und Doof in German, Flip I Flap on Polish, etc. Says a lot about how we make international icons our very own.

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