To think we have something to learn form the 'Chinese' mother story?

[Cortina]

Looking beyond her questionable motivational methods she clearly believed in the seemingly limitless potential of her children and the merits of instilling good self discipline.

I have so many friends who haven't achieved their potential and are now disappointed and depressed as a result. Parents who shouted up the stairs 'have you done your homework' and that was as far as it went. Musical talents being wasted, practice and interest waned as computer and TV use increased. In the bottom stream at school they channelled their energies into becoming the class clown laughing at the 'boffins' in the top set.

The rot set in early at primary level when they were allowed to coast and nothing happened at home to reinforce learning. Many left school with dead end jobs that don't reflect their ability.

Know I am a mother myself I see that self discipline and solid early foundations take a child far. My friends that did school work with their children before they went to school have seen that their child is often believed in early and this positive view of what they may be capable of tends to shadow the child through their school career.

What one child can achieve really very many can but we seem to like to believe that we are all prisoners of our IQ in the UK when really this might just be a cop out? Resources are limited and we have to decide who 'deserves' a good education so that may be one reason why. With effort we can all get better and who knows what is possible? Cognitive science has shown this so much recently but we love to cling to old beliefs about IQ etc. Children who are treated as if they are more intelligent often become so, they come to see themselves as learners who can improve and bounce back when faced with short term failures.

I've seen intelligent children being 'made' over time rather than being born. Are Asian children genetically more intelligent than others? I found that I could beat the most gifted pupil in my class in almost any test if I put the hours in. Put the hours in I used to with some subjects, sometimes putting myself to bed when I came home from school until bedtime so I wasn't tempted by anything else. Then I'd revise solidly, read widely and think deeply. Many thought I'd got an average IQ at best and that I wasn't very smart, but just look what I could do!

Self discipline takes you far in life. Angela Duckworth and Martin Seligman of the University of Pennsylvania found that students ability to stay focused and engaged with a difficult task and not give up predicted their performance in school tests and exams twice as well as their IQ did. Self discipline predicted their grades, IQ did not.

I am also a huge advocate of Carol Dweck (who should pay me for all the publicity I give her :)). Later today I am attending a meeting with a group of high powered business people. I will be listened to and my view will count. Before I adopted a growth mindset this simply wouldn't have happened.

Sorry black...I dont think I worded that bit very well...20 year olds can't really be told what to do!
She's more encouraged to stay in than made, her mum makes sure she knows when things are due, where she's up to...iyswim...

Well quite frankly, linziluv, it would never occur to me to blame somebody else for anything lacking in my work ethic. That surely is for me to sort out?

And by the time I was 20 I certainly thought of myself as an adult, would have thought it ridiculous for my mum to keep track on when my work was due in. Which was just as well seeing that I was living at the other end of the country. My mother would have been very very worried if I had got to the age of 20 without thinking of myself as an adult.

No expert on these matters, but could the Chinese attitude have anything to do with their one-child per family rule? Just a random thought. Obviously Amy Chua has two children but I suppose she is the exception that proves the rule because she lives in the West.

www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepage

Interesting follow up piece in the NYT.

Good post peanutbutterkid.

I grew up in North America too and had my share of Chinese classmates (always first generation immigrants, in that the kids might have been born here but the parents weren't).

What struck me about Chua's WSJ article was this whole "no sleepovers, no TV, no socialising". It's true, those kids I went to school with were apart from us in that they weren't allowed to do a lot of stuff that we were. We pitied them. If they dared rebel, say by wanting a white boyfriend/girlfriend, they were practically disowned. Some of them rebelled in a huge way and ended up alone, troubled, rejected by their own families. Others toed the line uneasily, still others were happy to be as their parents wanted. I suspect part of the latter's loyalty was that a lifetime had been spent interpreting for their parents - whose English was often not great - they felt an obligation and honour towards their elders that the rest of us really didn't.

In the end, from what I know, they aren't really any more successful than the rest of us. Some are, some aren't. Some of us are, some aren't. But more importantly, I'm not sure that they are any happier either.

I always thought of them a little like Plato's cave people who never knew there was more out there than what was being shown to them....

NYT article contains some good responses too.

I am [shocked] that a 20yr old has to be forced by her parents to stay in and do the work and [shocked] that her parents think it is their place to get involved. Perhaps she should leave and get a job. My DC is away at university, he meets his own deadlines, I don't even know when they are, what they are for or how long he spends working. If I had to supervise I wouldn't pay to keep him there! You should be doing it for yourself and not your parents.
I agree that it is much easier if you come from a family that values education and has a work ethic, you learn by example but self discipline is something that you have to develop for yourself. Money is no help, there is many a 'poor little rich kid' who loses their way.
I don't think that it is ever too late. It is more difficult and it requires more effort but that is your own fault if you didn't take advantage at the right time. My father didn't do as well as he should have done at school but, once he realised it,he had a job he worked in the evening to get qualifications. It wasn't easy with 2 small DCs but he did very well. He knew that it was his own fault and as he was about 30 at the time it was utterly pathetic to pass the buck and say 'my mother should have made me!'

Sorry intened to put

Thank you all. This was one of the very few thought provoking discussions I have read here with some genuinely interesting input based on personal experience and reflection upon the topic.
Unfortunately many people take their whole lives to even realise they suffer from blame others conditioning.

It is much easier to blame others, especially mothers! A sign of being grown up is to realise that your mother was human, and not wonder woman, and you have to take resposibility for your own mistakes and behaviour.

Lamorna, I couldn't have put it better myself. I blamed my mother for all sorts of things (which were mainly justified) but to put it simply, after a certain age we are cognizant of ourselves as autonomous beings (well some of us are and some of those who aren't should be capable of being so) and if we are not to remain an emotional child for the rest of our lives, we must forgive, forget, move on and grow.

As an adjunct, I have often observed that many people seem to be emotionally stuck at about the age of 16 or 17. What do you think?

I think it helps if you have DCs of your own and you find out it wasn't as easy as you thought!

If people haven't achieved their potential it is their own fault!

Yes and no, there's is an easy way and a hard way to do everything and if you follow the conventional path it's easier to stay motivated, stay on task and achieve your potential.
Given my background I've done ok for my self but could have achieved so much more had anyone in my family known what was required, what my talents were, directed me and encouraged me.
I spend a lot of time now researching the career options of my 10 year old because I know what makes her tick, I know what she's naturally good at and we are going to make the most of those talents.
My 8 year old is totally different and we'll make her dreams come true to, haven't found out what they are as yet though.

mamatomany.
Not sure about "the conventional path"
There is more than one path through the forest you know! cf Robert Frost
I'm sorry to say but "researching the career options of a 10 year old" is deeply unsettling. WTF would a 10 year old need "career options" for ?

Ho Ho Ho Madam DeathStare. Indeed I agree. However one must admit that self- discipline( ie as in internalised) per se is useful in and of itself, also that any experience is useful in and of itself. Take this experience as opposed to a couple of years of couch-potatoing, computer-gaming self indulgence and which is more likely to have a more worthwhile outcome?
Of course one may subscribe to the theory of luck in outcomes but internalised discipline is more likely to result in a feeling of satisfaction in the sense of having goals, working to achieve them and once having achieved them...... rather than "luckily" becoming a multi-millionairre games designer.

Thanks Madam D, an interesting a well written article that makes some good points I think:

In some important ways the school cafeteria is more intellectually demanding than the library.

Be interested to see Chua's reponse to this article.

I always find your posts on education interesting Cortina. I don't think we do have that much focus on IQ though. Neither of my children have ever had an IQ test, and I've not heard of it happening from other parents.

I think some parents believe that certain tests are there to make an assessment of a child's innate ability, but no such test has ever been devised.

Thanks MillyR. I am fascinated by the subject, as you might have guessed.

Personally a belief about a limit on my intelligence & potential held me back for many years. I didn't 'believe' in my ability and I still struggle now.

It's not that children are judged by any rigid IQ test etc it's more about how they are subconsciously perceived. Early labeling and streaming can be damaging IMO. Labels tend to be very sticky I've found.

Our primary believed that certain children were inherently brighter right from reception. Those that knew more when they started, were older in the year etc had an advantage that tended to stay with them. They often felt confident as a consequence which always helps.

Madam.
Bullying and coercing are neither necessary nor conducive to the common good.
And Socialists would do well to remember that (although that is a totally separate discussion of course)

There is more than one path, one is the easy straight forward route to success and the other is much harder, with no doubt numerous opportunities to go off the straight and narrow.
I'm researching her options as many schools have waiting lists, entry requirements and if you don't know what is expected you cannot apply or compete for these places. She might not fancy any of them but she'll never say if only i'd known with a bit of luck.
I've done a lot with my life and met a lot people and interesting lives do not happen by accident somebody is always driving them.

By the way she described some aspects of family life I was convinced her children now only behave and avieve well because they've learned that mother's love is based on approval. Nasty.

I, too, would have benefitted from stricter parents who took an active interest in my talents and education and who pushed me to succeed. I didn't but now, in my twenties and with two DD's of my own, I realise that it is up to me to further my own education, push myself and invest in myself to find that self-discipline. I can't blame my upbringing for everything as much as it would be easier to do so and I have to take responsibility for my own shortcomings.

My 2 year old DD recognises all major colours, can say and write her ABC's and her name and her speech is excellent. It annoys me to some extent when people comment on how bright and intelligent she is and how she must have a high IQ because I feel it undermines the fact that we put in work together to achieve this. I spend the time teaching her and helping her but nobody seems to understand this like she picked it all up from day to day life and the television. I know I should be proud but it annoys me all the same.

I think a parent should be encouraging and should push their DC's but it's inevitably then up to those DC's to continue the values and discipline you have tried to instill on them. I also think a parent shouldn't be hypocritical and should lead by example.

I'm young and still figuring things out though so I'd like opinions on this.

I think that you are doing the right thing,LauLau and leading by example. Of course parental imput is the thing most likely to help a DC succeed.
Spending time wih a DC talking, playing and teaching is what everyone should be doing. Where it does wrong is if you have decided that DC will learn the violin at 3yrs and DC clearly has no interest and simply isn't ready.
I remember a poor little DS at the swimming pool and his mother was giving him hell because he had failed to get his 25m swimming badge! She called him a wimp and said that his daddy would be disappointed. She ended up by dunking him underwater and stalking off to the changing room with him running behind sobbing. Instead of having a good go the next time the poor little soul would be over anxious and terrified of failing. I just wanted to cuddle him and say that it really didn't matter but you can't!
A successful American, Liz Murray, was on TV this morning. She had drug addict parents and ended up on the streets herself before she turned her life around and got to Harvard. The refreshing thing was that she didn't blame her parents, she saw it as an illness and said that life was precious and each day was the first day of the rest of your life. Life is unfair, some people don't have a good start but as an adult you have to stop making excuses, blaming your parents and take control, saying maybe they didn't 'make me' but now I can 'make myself'.

I still can't get my head around parents making a 20yr old do her university work before she goes out!! It is something you do with a 6 yr old, by the time mine were GCSE level, probably long before, they managed their own time and took the consequences if they missed the deadlines.(I don't recall them missing deadlines).

LauLau - do you really want opinions? I can't see any good coming out of pushing your 2 year old academically.

Play with her, spend time with her - all fine. But she does not need to learn her ABCs yet.

Encouraging your child is good. Pushing her is a very dangerous game that can seriously backfire into a rebellious teenager who does no work, or a university drop out who doesn't know how to work independently.

You want her to be happy right? Does she need to go to Oxridge to be happy? What is the point of all this pushing?

Lots and lots of people do very averagely all their life - and are very happy. Lots and lots of other people do very well at school - and are not at all happy.

So spend your precious time with her now teaching her how to appreciate life and be happy. Because in the long term that is the most important skill.