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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What on earth is wrong with vaccinating children ffs?

1002 replies

poshsinglemum · 16/01/2011 08:31

I'm sure this has been done before a million times.

A friend of mine who has gone all woo recently isn't vaccinating her dd because some quack gave a lecture on the evils of vaccinating. My ex boyfriends mum was a complete quack/chrystal healer and begged me not to vaccinate against typhoid, encaphalitus, rabies etc when I went to the third world. She gave me a homeopathic kit. Needless to say I got the jabs anyway.

I think that the ''evidence'' not to vaccinate is coming from the woo crew and is fuelled by paranoid conspiracy theories concerning the pharmeceutical industry. I am not completely convinced by the industry myself but I'd rather take a chance on them than my dd getting polio etc.

I just read the MIL thread but I have been meaning to discuss this for ages.

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 18/01/2011 14:32

LookToWindward - re "After twenty five pages of posts there hasn't been a single reference to anything that would support the claims of those arguing against vaccination. Nothing."

How about facts and logic?

  1. Safety of some vaccines is debated (ex: Hepatitis B)
  2. Lifelong immunity from having a disease is better than temporary immunity from a vaccine

Therefore, refusing vaccine and letting child have a disease is preferable when:

  1. The disease is not terribly dangerous (ex: rubella - very mild in childhood)
  2. Perceived risk of vaccine is unjustified by probability of catching disease (ex: Hep B)

Conclusion:

  1. Refuse Hep B & MMR (give Measles single vaccine)
  2. Test DS for mumps immunity at age 7-8. Give mumps vaccine if not immune.
  3. Test DD for mumps & rubella immunity at age 16-17. Give vaccines if not immune.

If you can find anything illogical, ill-informed, "six-day-creationist" Hmm in the above, do say what and why.

ReclaimingMyInnerPeachy · 18/01/2011 14:40

Something I always note on these threads as a fence sitter is that the pro lobby fail to register that I have vacinated (mostly) and get abusive; whilst the anti bunch tend not to be rude to me and accept what I say as my opinion.

That's interesting.

You can;t possibly give aprental choice on a website: anyone who thought that would need to be renamed Madame Gullible! I would hope it would inspire people to go find find what's out tehre themselves. On a talkboard ev eryone has an opinion even if it's just that they have yet to decide.

I am decidedly pro jab for the majority; I even have hazy recollections of having a pice I wrote about Jenner mounted on a wall of my FE college some 21 years ago LOL. But I also belive that we don;t understand everything about genetics and immunity yet and that some people's makeups work differently (loads of stuff coming out now about how genetic interactions present entirely different scenarios developmentally) partly dependent on the other genes they have inherited. trying to make complete answers from what we have now is like making a puzzle when you have 10 pieces from 300.

I would also like to pint out that in the calpol study one suggestion given for the link was immune imbalance caused by retardation of the immune response by the medication and that it might not just be calpol but any medication given in fever- indeed it was paracetamol rather than name brand calpol- such as ibuprofen. The authors were unsure. And it's not impossible that therein lies at least some of the link with vaccinations given many medics advise giving to babies even under 3 months prior to vaccination. but would I advise avoiding these medecines? goodness know! I would suggest teh chances of brain damage through contracting emasles is far lower than the chances of contracting it through not treating a fever. For a start, you get measles once in your life at most.

ReclaimingMyInnerPeachy · 18/01/2011 14:43

And why cannot people see that, as cote says it is not either MMR or nothing. There are other options that myself and a great many others choose.

Your child will not catch measles from ds4, he is immune through a single jab. Thi is not recorded anywhere mind, his GP only knows he has not had MMR. I wonder how that affects herd immunity rates in fact? In my RL I know no children who ahve had nothing (except those who CANNOT be immunised), and plenty who have had measles as a separate.

babybarrister · 18/01/2011 14:48

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ReclaimingMyInnerPeachy · 18/01/2011 14:51

I didn;t relaise they had stop making the egg free variiant.

Strange choice.

babybarrister · 18/01/2011 14:52

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larus · 18/01/2011 15:30

ReclaimingMyInnerPeachy am hoping that I haven't been abusive and am very Blush if I have been.

I do take the point that medicine doesn't have all the pieces of the puzzle, but thats pretty normal in science. Things are rarely 100% certain. I also think the vaccination programme is set up to help most of the people most of the time, but it doesn't fit everyone.

I do get a little perplexed though when the hypothetical risk of a vaccine (although I do appreciate that for some the risk is much higher) is given more weight than the known risk of the disease - I know you haven't said this, but a lot of people do and thats the bit I have trouble with.

ReclaimingMyInnerPeachy · 18/01/2011 15:46

I think what you are missing (and this one I am good at-n RE degree LOL0 is the value of belief. If you absolutely beleive that a vaccine is harmful then it ceases to be hypothetical. true belief and faith is absolute, and not always misplaced. Therefre you either find ways to work with the believer (reinstating mumps vaccine for a start) or you accept a % of those who could be immune will not.

And no abuse etc not specifcally aimed at anyone: I am a vet of many of these threads LOL

Riskof vaccine V illness stats are indeed meaningless; for a start the risk of an extreme reaction to a virus stands whether you get it or not and regardless of the vaccine % in the general pop; also, many of these risks are based on either poor countries or the apst when we know medical care- in particular intensive care- is so much imrpoved.

In aprticular there's stuff out there on the subject of how so few medics now have seen measles that their care is underinformed and how we need to look at vit c meds in a hospital setting (I conform that when I was nurse training measles was never covered). So the risks we see in the isolated cases would not necessarily reflect the risks of well info0mred experienced care anyway.

or in other words- the stats are all so flawed it's impossible to use them meaningfully.

Appletrees · 18/01/2011 15:56

Larus: what you call the known risk of disease has changed so much, that is the problem. Míos, self limiting diseases have been redefined as deadly killed, more dangerous than they are. Likewise the "known" risk of the vaccines are clothing of the sort. There is shocking under reportage of reactions which are too often describe as coincidental. There are examples on this thread. It seems that sometemos drs will even privately concede that a child should have no more vaccines, even without officially recording a vaccine reacción. This is why a risk benefit calculation is so difficult and personal. The facts on which one would base it are often skewed or hideden.

CoteDAzur · 18/01/2011 16:23

Larus - re "hypothetical risk of a vaccine (although I do appreciate that for some the risk is much higher) is given more weight than the known risk of the disease"

Vaccine risk is not hypothetical, it is very real and acknowledged by vaccine manufacturers.

If you are "puzzled", I heartily recommend reading Game Theory analyses on this subject.

We are willing to vaccinate our babies if the payoff is positive. (Payoff = benefit - price)

Benefit: Increased immunity to disease
Price: Risk (real or perceived) to baby's health.

Note that we are not talking about probabilities here (probability of negative effect to child is small, but so is probability of that child catching and then developing a complication to the disease). We are talking about the risk and the benefit.

Risk = probability * how bad outcome will be
Benefit = probability * how great the outcome will be

CoteDAzur · 18/01/2011 16:38

This Game Theory analysis of vaccination decisions is difficult to read, but the conclusion is plain enough:

For any perceived relative risk r > 0, the expected vaccine uptake is less than the eradication threshold, i.e., P * < p crit (Fig. 1). This finding formalizes an argument that has previously been made qualitatively (8, 14); namely, it is impossible to eradicate a disease through voluntary vaccination when individuals act according to their own interests. In situations where vaccination is perceived to be more risky than contracting the disease (r > 1), one would expect, even without the aid of a model, that no parents would vaccinate their children.

CoteDAzur · 18/01/2011 16:40

This Game Theory analysis...

ArthurPewty · 18/01/2011 16:52

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lifeinlimbo · 18/01/2011 18:51

Here are some better books:

The panic virus: A true story of medicine, science and fear. Seth Mnookin.

Deadly choices: How the anti-vaccine movement threatens us all. Paul Offit.

Tabloid medicine: How the internet is being used to hijack medical science for fear and profit. Robert Goldberg.

pointydug · 18/01/2011 19:07

cote, I am very impressed with your theories. I like them. They make sense. Game Theory Analysis.

This should be based on facts and statistics, not belief.

ArthurPewty · 18/01/2011 19:26

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ArthurPewty · 18/01/2011 19:27

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lifeinlimbo · 18/01/2011 19:53

Oh Leonie, you have gone to the trouble of insulting them each personally! How thoughtful of you. Im suprised you didnt just use the generic
"knob trolley wanker, smelly closet homo, troll cunt wankers who can fuck off."

CoteDAzur · 18/01/2011 20:02

pointy - None of this is my theory, actually. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory Game Theory is a branch of economics that has been applied to biology, international politics, etc basically every situation where "players" have a choice and affect each other. I studied it briefly as part of my MBA.

Risk, benefit, payoff etc are the usual terminology and that risk = probability * outcome etc is all standard definition of these terms.

ArthurPewty · 18/01/2011 20:16

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mitochondria · 18/01/2011 20:31

Why would being an ex-addict mean the book was wrong?
It's like the "man who doesn't agree with Wakefield is a gay" argument.

Completely irrelevant.

pointydug · 18/01/2011 20:36

oh no, I didn't mean I thought you had come up with the theories, cote. I didn't think you were that smart Wink

I just meant, I like taht one you have mentioned in relation to this issue

PaisleyLeaf · 18/01/2011 20:45

mumsgotatum, I don't know about Stephanie Cave. But I'd give Halvorsen a wide birth (he's made a lot of money out of vulnerable people being scared about vaccinations. With his singles clinic and witness fees in litigation (legal aid money that's supposed to be to help the poor).

Appletrees · 18/01/2011 20:48

Limbo and Ltr, and others on this thread, seem to be assuming the absolutely untenable position that vaccine damage does not exist. The argument is impossible to maintain.

Vaccine damage exists. The only questions are: what kind of damage is it? and how many children are affected?

As to how many, this is difficult to know. The pro-vaccination brigade maintain it is a tiny minority. Unfortunately it is clear that many vaccine reactions are not reported. Many vaccine reactions are reported but not recorded. Many vaccine reactions are reported and dismissed as coincidence, even when occurring on the very day of the injection. For example, Harry Clark, who'd had his infant injections in the hours before he died. It was said in court that he'd had no reaction to the jab. ..except, of course, that he died. It is not known that it is a tiny minority: there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that the numbers are much greater than officially admitted. So how many are there? How can we find out? It is impossible.

So. There is vaccine damage. We don't know how many children are affected but it's plain that for some reason the numbers are not going to be made available to us. Ever.

Second: what kind of vaccine damage occurs? The pro-vaccination brigade insist that autism is not on the list. No one knows what triggers regressive autism. No one knows why so many children in the last twenty years have developed autism spectrum disorders. But the pro-vaccination brigade know, with absolute certainty, that vaccines are not to blame. They know that mercury is not to blame, they know that MMR is not to blame. It is, of course, impossible for them to know this. So why do they think they know?

There have been many epidemiological studies which purport to show that MMR is not to blame. They are usually heralded with great fanfare. Unfortunately, on reading the paper rather than the press releases, one sees that the findings are not just less than substantive, they're often based on flawed premises and even mendacity.

Examples: the first Finland study, purporting to show that of three million children who took MMR, none were diagnosed with autism. But wait: it seems they didn't look at three million children, they looked at 31, who were reported to outpatient care, mainly with bowel problems after vaccination. Oh, and it was funded by a vaccine manufacturer. Worthless research. Or the study that showed the "autism boom" began before MMR was introduced. But wait: they based that on the ages of people with autism diagnoses and tracked them back to whether they'd been of an age to have MMR. Did they look at vaccination records? No. Did they look at clinical records? No. Most importantly, they ignored a 1994 catch up campaign in which 3.2 million children between 5-16 were vaccinated: thus pushing the "eligible" age of diagnosis to what would now be 32. A worthless study. Then there was the study which followed children over ten years in Denmark and found no difference in autism diagnoses between vaccinated and unvaccinated children. But wait: the age of vaccination wa 18 months: the age of diagnosis approximately four and a half. When the study ended, three years worth of children were counted as vaccinated non-autistic, when they hadn't even reached the age of diagnosis. A worthless study. Then there was Japan. MMR was withdrawn and autism rates rose. But wait: single vaccinations were given within days of each other, sometimes the same day. A worthless study.

None of these studies, which purport to put the issue finally to rest, do anything of the sort. Indeed it's quite the opposite: they simply look like PR campaigns.

Now, the false statement that there is "no evidence", "not a shred of evidence" that MMR might be involved in triggering a gut-ASD reaction.

Remember they 1800 odd children who tried to sue for MMR damage? They had an enormous amount of evidence. Clinical, sub clinical, videographic, photographic, temporal, eventual diagnoses. Enough to secure legal aid for an extended period. Why was legal aid withrawn? Not because they had no evidence. On technical grounds. Because they put all their evidence on the table and were asked to come up with more, by a particular deadline. This during a period when consultants were running scared that what was happening to Wakefield might happen to them. There is plenty of evidence. If you inhabit a world where mothers are lying hysterics, you would deny it. But given that we all know vaccine damage occurs, that mothers are not in general lying hysterics, that all around us the number of children with ASD diagnoses, auto immune disorders and allergies are rising inexorably, it's impossible not to accept that some trauma to the immune system is occurring and that more research into the role of vaccines is needed.

The extreme views that there is no such thing as vaccine damage, that the case against vaccines-autism-auto-immune is proved absolutely, are not only false. They're impossible to take seriously.
Mumps and measles occuring naturally are known to increase the likelihood of an autism diagnoses. Wakefield wanted more research.

Appletrees · 18/01/2011 20:51

Yeah. And I haven't even started on the exaggerated claims made about the deadliness of childhood illness and the role played by vaccines in the falling numbers. Another day maybe.

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