What on earth is wrong with vaccinating children ffs?

[poshsinglemum]

I'm sure this has been done before a million times.

A friend of mine who has gone all woo recently isn't vaccinating her dd because some quack gave a lecture on the evils of vaccinating. My ex boyfriends mum was a complete quack/chrystal healer and begged me not to vaccinate against typhoid, encaphalitus, rabies etc when I went to the third world. She gave me a homeopathic kit. Needless to say I got the jabs anyway.

I think that the ''evidence'' not to vaccinate is coming from the woo crew and is fuelled by paranoid conspiracy theories concerning the pharmeceutical industry. I am not completely convinced by the industry myself but I'd rather take a chance on them than my dd getting polio etc.

I just read the MIL thread but I have been meaning to discuss this for ages.

The evidence isn't incontrovertible. Again, you're making these statements with no scientific evidence to back them up.

The evidence IS incontrovertible that measles, mumps, pertussis, polio, diptheria, tetanus etc can lead to death and permanent disability.

the evidence isn't incontrovertible that children with mitochondrial dysfunction (and in particular dd2's type of mito issues) are likely to be damaged by vaccines?

really?

An the advance about reading, taking into account family etc is all well and good as long as it's based on scientific evidence and not anecdote and suggestions of conspiracy and done in agreement with medical professionals.

The result of this 'reading' based on stuff swirling around the internet is a huge drop in vaccination rates. You can't possibly think this is a good thing for the health of our children.

Yes really. Where is this incontrovertible evidence?

silverfrog

no, I fully admit to making assumptions. That's why it's not appropriate to bring in your specific case. I have assumed, based on things you've said, that your version of the aetiology of your daughter's condition and your ensuing decisions are not based on scientific evidence and with the backing of medical professionals.

I could be wrong as I don't know you or the full details but seems reasonable to me based on what you've said so far.

I don't ever recommend reading "stuff on the internet" either.

not random stuff.

I have linked to studies which are interesting before now (not so much recently, as I have had a computer meltdown resulting in a loss of bookmarks; I did link to some articles earlier in direct answer to some posts. I tend not to link to blogs and vaccination forums)

I have recommneded some books before (Halvorsen in articular. he has quite a balance view, and takes each case on its own merits, and offers jabs to suit individual circumstance)

I do recommned reading around the subject, properly and thoroughly.

I tried to do that, with dd1, and was denied the opportunity

I made sure that was not the case with dd2.

the health I care about most, is the health of my children. I am not, and cannot be, responsible fo rhow other parents come to their conclusions.

but that does not mean that I will not talk about our experiences, as a family, in order to make it easier for people to come to what oyu would see as the "right" conclusion.

statalover, you really need to do some more research and reading if you think that vaccinating chldren showing signs of mitochondrial dysfunction is a good idea.

btw, do you also recommend that people diagnosed with all forms of epilepsy line up for vaccination?

or are some things accepted, but not ones which you don't like?

"my argument is always that one should read as much as possible, take into account family circumstances and history, and come to a conclusion that is right for you as an individual and as a family"

However most people simply aren't capable of making an informed decision. They lack the expertise and understanding of the subject and the evidence. They don't understand risk and how it applies to vaccinations or the context of immunisation and how it applies to groups.

All they see is scaremongering idiots. They go on the internet to look for answers and get the usual websites containing all kinds of spurious arguments and data and think "well I'm not getting that done".

I bet if that same someone was recommended that their child had their tonsils removed they wouldn't think twice but somehow when it comes to vaccinations everyone's an expert?

• Note that I'm not referring to you here - just talking in general terms.

Personally, I think that the systematic reviews done by the Cochrane collaboration are the strongest evidence to the safety of vaccines. These are people trained in appraising the quality of the evidence and in searching for all evidence, including grey literature.

And, by the way, I'd like to see the studies you read which DID say that vaccines are not dangerous.

After all, cherry picking what you put forward as evidence is another trait of denialism

"I have assumed, based on things you've said, that your version of the aetiology of your daughter's condition and your ensuing decisions are not based on scientific evidence and with the backing of medical professionals."

that's a lot of assumptions ot make.

and they are in fact, incorrect.

I'm not a clinician. I don't know all the groups for whom vaccines are not recommended. I do know that most of those groups would be at even higher risk of damage if they got the disease though.

The very little I do know about mitochondrial disorder and vaccination, any stress of the body can be pretty bad - this includes vaccines but also getting the disease.

As far as I know, people with epilepsy can be vaccinated.

silverfrog

OK, if you say so. It's an internet forum. No way of knowing either way.

way to go.

firstof all, you doubt "my version of dd1's aetiology"

then, when I say you are wrong to do so, you imply that I am making it all up.

believe me, I wish I didn't ahve a vaccine damaged child.

life would be a lot easier, I tell you.

you are right, this is the internet, and I could be a hairy handed trucker, just like you could be a shit stirring schoolboy.

but I'm not, and I doubt you are either.

but you carry on resorting to the personal insults.

I have no reason to make up anything about my children.

I wish that dd1 wa snot vaccine damaged.

I wish that dd2 did not have a mitochondrial disorder.

I wish a whole lot of htings, but that isn't going to change anything.

believe, don't believe, that's your call.

but please, lay off the insinuation that oyu know what is better for my childen than me, and their team of doctors.

Statalover, your sheer ignorance and arrogance in hounding silverfrog when you don't even know that much about the subject anyway, probably a fraction of what she does, are laughable.

YABU because jabs don't provide lifelong immunity and not all diseases are equally dangerous.

For a mild disease like rubella, for example, it is much better to have it as a child when it is so mild that most cases go unnoticed. Being vaccinated as a baby for a disease that is only ever dangerous to pregnant women, only to have immunity wear off near childbearing age makes no sense.

There are also vaccines like Hepatitis B whose safety is disputed. Weighing the very low chance of DC ever contracting Hep B to the possibility of a demyelinating disease like MS, I chose to refuse Hep B vaccine.

In short, I share your hatred towards quack "medicine" and homeopathy in particular, but it is not only feather-brained crystal healing types who refuse to stick all available vaccines into their DC.

Sometimes you just have to trust that people who are fully trained in relevant fields do have better knowledge and understanding, and go with their advice. This whole vaccination argument - and mistrust of professionals who have spent years tackling difficult post-graduate exams/writing a thesis - is insane. It's like having a planeload of random people listen to an announcement about a technical problem with the 747 they're on, and allowing them to take a vote on how a difficult and complex component should be fixed because they all think they understand it perfectly after reading a couple of websites, and their individual right to choose trumps the collective right to a safe experience.

I have no problem with people choosing not to vaccinate their children for no good medical reason, because if the worst happens to their children as a result then at least they've prevented their stupid genes being passed on to another generation - it's the modern form of Darwinism, and ultimately benefits us. I do, however, feel sorry for those whose children can't be immunised (e.g. those with an immunodeficiency), and are being put at risk by this mass ignorance and arrogance.

Just popping in quickly - crazy weekend!

For those using the herd immunity argument - interesting figures here from Saudi Arabia. In 2007 there was a measles outbreak - 4,648 people out of a population of 24680 (18% of the population. This was despite a vaccination rate of 96%.

For those talking about the tetanus risk - yes fatality of tetanus can be quite high - but you have to catch it first! There are about 7 cases of tetanus a year - cases not deaths - usually in the elderly. The last case of tetanus in an under 15 was in 2000/01 - she had been fully vaccinated. she made a full recovery.

I personally don't have a problem with people who decide to vaccinate or not vaccinate. I am pro information to allow people to make an informed choice either way. IMO there is a blind faith that vaccines guarantee protection against disease (which they don't) and that all the diseases that we vaccinate against are extremely dangerous and fatal - which in some cases they can be (every illness carries a risk but then so does every vaccine) but that risk is very small in some cases. It baffles me that people will dismiss the risk of vaccinations as 'small' and 'only for some' (no way of knowing who though!) but will not accept that the risk of the disease is also 'small' and 'only for some' (again no way of knowing who though!)

shergar - 'if the worst happens to their children as a result then at least they've prevented their stupid genes being passed on to another generation - it's the modern form of Darwinism'

Lol - i actually feel the same way about the people who blindly vaccinate against everything and everything. Only time will tell... :)

anything and everything..

Appletrees
"Ha ha -- nice to see the nobs have disappeared"

Nice to see a reasoned arguement.

Whilst I dont agree - and never will with any of the views here from people who dont believe in vaccinations at least I can appreciate we have different views and some have put their view point across without resorting to insulting people who dont agree with their view - unlike you.

To call people "nobs" because they dont agree with you shows how much you should be pitied, and not listened to - if thats what it takes to help you put your view across well we cant really be dealing with a reasoned individual really!

And regarding "disappearing" well - sooorryyy....some of us have other things to do with our day than stay ALL day on an internet forum arguing with someone - I put my view point across and that was that.

just had DS2 to docs for flu jab as he is at risk and 5 hours after injection he has developed optic nerve neuritis and cannot see properly out of his eye. I am terrified.

Those who are too stupid to vaccinate will be more exposed to death/disability resulting from the disease.

So yes it is survival of the fittest. A shame for those peoples' children though :(
and a shame for children who were too young or immunocompromised :(