... to think that most MNers live in a bubble?

[frgr]

Seriously, the amount of times I read on here about "oh we earn 70k a year but we're really struggle to provide for little Jacob's polo lessons this year" (or some other such shite).

In real life, the average income of my family and friends is probably circa the national average. I know for a fact that my BIL is on around £6/hr and works 42 hours a week, I know that my best friend's total family income is about 22k because she was talking about mortgages a month ago... I'm talking about hard working people who go out come rain or shine and do their day's work, to provide for their families.... and then I log on here and find out MNers are posting trivial shit about being unable to afford XYZ and feeling hard done by on their incomes of "only" 3x the national average.

I don't know if I've become more sensitive to this crap since starting re-posting on here last year (after a break of about 3 years), but it seems to me that certain members of MN are totally and utterly oblivious as to what the average family is having to endure during this recession.

It's fucking unbelievable, it really is.

In your opinion, why are so many MNers out of touch with reality? Does this site cater to a different class than me? Are avg MNers just generally deluded - do I even belong here any more, with our 21k combined income, worrying about where the next school trip fee is coming from despite the fact that both of us work?

Christ.

oh no just 300 a week after tax? that awful, i shall gather a pot around mumsnet and collect some money to help the very much over worked, over taxed and over stretched 70k earners.

to help the unemployed and wtc? of course they fucking should.
what do you think the housing options are for those who earn 300 a week before tax?

its quite insulting to moan about hardship at 70k when lots of people have lost their jobs or earn piss all.

I don't think I live in a bubble - don't earn £70K but between me and DP we have a household income of about 90K a year.

Doesn't mean I don't live in the real world and have struggles. DP is self employed in a very volatile industry - we have had to absorb the wild fluctuiations of construction in teh last 2 years. He has had periods where he has struggled for work. I have been thankful that half of the household income comes from my salary which is secure.

I agere with Violethill in many respects - yes there is an element of luck in what I have, but there is also an element of choice and sacrifice, such as never having stopped work when I had dd, moving across country to get a better job, moving jobs all the time, travelling with work when I would much rather be at home etc.

Not to say that my choices are the right ones, but they work for me, and I do place a lot of importance on financial security and independence.

But just because I earn a fair bit doesn't mean I am out of touch or not part of the 'real world'.

I have read the entire thread again this morning and conclude that the OP is right. Threr are a considerable number of MNers who think that everybody else is somehow in a better situation than them.

My evidence is entirely from the posts. We have people on very good wages describing others as "the feckless poor" and completely misunderstanding that struggling to pay for your second car some months is not the same as giving up food for yourself one week because your son needs a new pair of shoes. Sweeping statements are made ignoring the fact that someone earning 15K a week may need "clothes suitable for work" AND have to buy them out of benefits and not lots of low earners have to work outside their scheduled hours, not necessarily doing their tax returns, but prep work, or mending their uniforms or research.

We have people on benefits who do not grasp that high earners often live in expensive areas and get no assistance at all leaving then with a reasonable living but not millionaires. The things they can't afford (like private education) weigh heavily on their minds - am I giving my child the best start, every Mum wants this for their child, it just depends what you can afford as a "best start"

We have the "working poor" who work hard and a lot of hours and do not get benefits, this means they do not get passported benefits such as free school meals, help with school trips etc which means they end up having to say no to their children for things that a family down the road get for nothing despite the fact they are working their butts off and the other family are just sitting on theirs.

Then again we have people who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps from poor beginnings who think that everybody else should be able to do the same, if they have not then they are obviously workshy and the fact they live in penury is obviously their fault.

There is a lot of bitterness and jealousy from one group to the others no-one seems to want to condider that each group has its own joys and difficulties. This is what I consider to be "living in a bubble" and I conclude the OP is right BUT that she herself is living in one, just a different one.

We're not in the 70k bracket (I assume we're talking net, here, although thinking about it we're not bringing in 70k gross either)but I do think that some people overestimate how much disposable income others have. And vice versa, tbh.

GOML, you could have gone on to have a small brood of DCs, not bothered to train and get ahead, had your rent paid for you. Sat an whinged about being broke. But you didn't. You worked bloody hard, and now you're reaping the rewards.

Not everyone can do that - but I certainly hope they don't resent you for it.

GetOrfMoiLand by "never having stopped work when I had dd" do you mean that you didn't take any maternity leave?

I have told Dh never to earn over £30k again the figures don't add up, he worked too hard earning £60 kish to be taxed to high heaven on company cars, savings you name it. If he works 30 hours a week for £30k and I work around the same, as a family we are better off. Work to live not live to work seems to be the secrete.

Well summed up Take - I think this forum does in someway help others see how people live and different problems they may have - some may find one dilema difficult to understand as their bubble / point of refernce is very different toi another.

It's the super rich that seem to take the piss like footballers earning £k every month and then avoid paying taxes. Its the tax system that's at fault though.

If you're self-employed it's very hard to take maternity leave. You can of course claim maternity allowance but the issue of what to do with your clients still remains- you could lose a lot of clients if you take more than a couple of weeks off. I was answering work emails in the labour ward and went back to work 2 weeks after leaving hospital (C section, general anaesthetic) because I really had to. Maternity leave is not a luxury open to everyone.

I realise that duchesse, which is why I was asking GOML whether that was what she meant. I wasn't sure whether she meant that she hadn't taken maternity leave, or that she had gone back to work after maternity leave and not become a SAHM (which is what I did, I went back to work when DS1 was 4 months, when DS2 was 8 months and when DD was 4 months).

yes but you dont have to live in an expensive area, if you are rich you have the option to move and save money-where do the working poor have the same option?

its all well and good saying they may have an expensive lifestyle but thats their own fault if times get hard you cut back.

the majority of people will never take that much home and never have the options of an expensive lifestyle to cut down on.

no sympathy at all

Some Companys give you a car for business - you then pay the equivalent tax of what is worth - although it got more complex than that as its also now done on the amount of emissions. Company cars became much more prevelant when Labour in th epast fixed the amount of pay rises - so employees started to get cars instead. Also depend son employer how they do the tax for the fuel - some you get an allowance, some they pay all and you get yaxed on the equivalent.

Many people now opt out of the car scheme but get paid a fixed amount - but you have to have a car which is under a certain age usually and suitable for business purposes - insured etc etc.

Sorry Jemima, that was confusing of me, what I meant is that I didn't stop work and stay at home (went back when dd was 3 month's old, as in line with the maternity leave laws at the time).

So yes I did have some time off work.

That said, I am politically somewhat to the left of keir hardie, I am happy to pay tax and think the welfare state is one of the most successful achievemnts of the last century. yes some people take the piss but i would much rather my taxes went on a decent welfare state provision, as the majority of people who claim it are in real need.

People should be less concerned about their own perceptions of everyone else's lives. Seriously.

this is about the 300 millionth thread along this theme on MN.

OP: I sympathise, and it does sometimes seem that way. The "affluenza" threads do tend to leap out at one. People do have very different concepts of what "struggling" means.

The one thing which really annoys me is the "we/DH work(s) hard" argument as a justification. Yes, a lot of people work hard. In supermarkets and factories, for example.

Duchesse, agree. I am self employed too, and had the luxury of mat leave of 4 months which I had carefully calculated was the most amount of time that I could take off without losing clients. I regard my 4 months as a luxury because I know plenty of women who did the same of you and Xenia and took 2 weeks off.

Knitted - moving often isn't a real option - not if commuting costs eat up the savings.

Riven, the jist with company car tax is that it is cheaper to buy your own but DH would doing 100,000 miles a year and the company would have had to pay him 40p per mile, well of course that doesn't work for them because they can claim back the VAT on the new car and the petrol he'd use, insurance and servicing too no doubt where as using your own car and being PAYE you can't claim any of that.
As soon as he went self employed he started using his own car and getting all those benefits.

i think between us, dh and I earn about 65k

i work 4 days a week (in scientific research), dh works full time at the GLA (though may be made redundant soon)

We live in a grotty-ish part of SE london, have one car, send dd1 to the nearest state primary (where dd2 will go too), and have a 2-bed terraced house. We have an old TV and a very old stereo. Which is all fine by me. So I don't think we live in some kind of madly over-privileged bubble simply based on what we earn. For one thing we pay nearly a thousand pounds a month in childcare costs. But we are comfortable (for now, touch wood) and I don't usually have to worry about buying stuff for the girls, and we don't throw money around but we do save every month, as I am terrifically paranoid about having some savings to fall back on if everything goes wrong.

So we are lucky and I am grateful. It might not always be this way. And it doesn't mean I can't sympathise with people who struggle for money. When dh and i first lived together we were both on the dole for a while, then both in very low-earning jobs, and it was tough but we didn't have kids and it wasn't for very long. But I remember worrying a lot about money and having to think about every penny and being stressed out by bills. Must be much much more difficult when there are children to provide for. Don't know what I'm trying to say really...maybe just that earning over a certain amount doesn't necessarily rob you of empathy?

The one thing which really annoys me is the "we/DH work(s) hard" argument as a justification. Yes, a lot of people work hard. In supermarkets and factories, for example.

I'm sure that's true so the rewards come for being more driven, qualified and in demand. If you don't like working hard for less money become more driven, qualified and in demand it's not rocket science.

there are always options, just ones you dont want to take.