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Original poster

To be shocked 90% of Down's babies are aborted?

575 replies

Strictly · 14/01/2011 09:20

I was jut reading this sorry, yes it's from the DM!

and then did a little Googling and it turns out 91% of people told their baby has DS will have an abortion... Shock

I'm just astounded it's so high. I'm not making a judgment on the idea people might abort, but am very shocked that it seems almost universal to abort if told the baby has Down's.

I wonder what it is about that particular condition that 91% of people feel they could not live with? The rates for abortions of Cerebral Palsy babies for example is nowhere near as high. Is it just that Down's is easy to detect so the majority of people actually get the chance to decide?

OP posts:
2shoes · 14/01/2011 18:47

Onetoomanycornettos I disagree, as I think it is important to see the person first.

sarah293 · 14/01/2011 18:52

This reply has been deleted

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Onetoomanycornettos · 14/01/2011 18:53

What do you mean 'see the person first'? If you meet someone with Downs syndrome are you supposed not to notice until you get to know them better?

I understand that the term 'Downs syndrome person' is offensive as it labels the whole person by their chromosomal abnormality, and this doesn't necessarily define them, but all this 'see the person first' doesn't resonate with me at all.

And my point still stands, this ends up being the conversation that people have about Downs syndrome, rather than more interesting nuanced conversations about life, disability, human experience and so on. People now don't know whether to mention the glaringly obvious, my friend reported that she spent several hours with some good family friends after she had her baby with Downs syndrome and they simply didn't mention it at all. Perhaps they were trying to send the 'see the person first' message, but it was just bizarre and didn't chime with what for her was a life-changing experience which she wanted to share with others, whatever terms they used.

midori1999 · 14/01/2011 18:54

I already knew the figure and am not suprised. The medical profession heavily counsell towards termination IMO.

On top of that, people see Downs Syndrome as such a big deal and I feel a lot of the terminations that happen are due to misconceptions people have. That siblings will be left to care for the child with Downs when the parents die, that siblings will suffer as a result of the child having Downs, that they will not cope. I think people only see 'Downs Syndrome' and can't see past that and see the child.

I wonder what these same people who terminate a baby with Downs would do if they had their baby first and then found out it had Downs? This is what happened to me and I am not sure if I would have terminated had I known when I was pregnant, because I would have felt it was unfair to my other children, that I wouldn't be able to cope etc. When in reality, none of that is the case.

I wouldn't change my son for the world. Yes, he has Downs Syndrome, but that is only a small part of who he is. Nevertheless, without it he wouldn't be who he is and he wouldn't be the little boy we love and adore so much. We are lucky in that although he had open heart surgery at 6 months old, his health problems are few, but his learning difficultis are at the severe end of the spectrum. It's just no big deal though and he doesn't care, so why should we?

I have declined any testing for Downs in subsequent pregnancies. It's irrelevant to me.

sarah293 · 14/01/2011 18:55

This reply has been deleted

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2shoes · 14/01/2011 18:57

midori1999 lovely post

Onetoomanycornettos I think you are deliberately misunderstanding, me and others who have pointed this out.

midori1999 · 14/01/2011 18:59

"it's tragic life"

Really? Yes, I see people with Downs Syndrome looking positively misrable all the time. All the children with Downs at my sons school never laugh, smile or joke.

People with Downs Syndrome often won't have to face the stresses and strains of everyday life that most of us face.

It's a different type of life, no dubt that most of us can't imagine leading, but that does not make it in any way tragic.

WorzselMummage · 14/01/2011 18:59

Buzz I think your preaching to the converted! I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to activate :)

Onetoomanycornettos · 14/01/2011 19:00

I get this, I'm just pointing out that people seem to hover on these threads just waiting for someone to use the phrase 'Downs syndrome baby' and leap on them, and perhaps that's not the best approach to facilitate more open communication and an accepting attitude towards disabilities and Downs syndrome. That's my point, very few people have initially treated my friend's baby like another human being and seem vastly embarrassed by the whole thing, and I sometimes wonder whether fear of saying the wrong thing contributes to this.

BuzzLightBeer · 14/01/2011 19:01

You now what though, at the base of this thing (as in the original op) is that if I personally find out I am going to have a baby with Downs syndrome, or Edwards syndrome, or anything else...it is my choice as to whether to go ahead with that pregnancy. Mine, not yours. If I choose not to, I am not making any comment on anyone elses situation or life, I am not telling you that you should have or shouldn't have done the same. Its my choice, for me.

Except actually, its not, because I live in a country where you aren't allowed. And I think you should be.

I'm sorry if anyone doesn't like the choices people make. I'm sorry if it upsets them or saddens them. But women have to be able to make their own choices.

soggy14 · 14/01/2011 19:02

If you go through invasive procedures such as cvs or amnio, it is most likely because you are not willing to raise a SN child it's not just raising a child though is it. I think that it is the idea that the child may well always need care that frightens people, especially anyone with any experience of what it is like and of just what sort of help is offered to anyone caring for a SN adult. The SN child bit is the easy bit compared to the SN adult bit. not of course saying that raising a SN child is easy - far from it - just that it is also very hard when they are older, not least because you get older so find the lifting, personal care etc etc so much harder and there really is very little help out there. And it is often for the rest of you rlife adn then you are thinking that your other children will need to take over...

midori1999 · 14/01/2011 19:35

Buzz, what would you do if you gave birth to your baby, fed you rbaby, cared for your baby and loved it and then found out at your six week post natal check that he/she had Downs?

unfitmother · 14/01/2011 19:37

Thank you Midori Smile

BuzzLightBeer · 14/01/2011 19:41

Thats not at all the same thing though, so my answer to my question is irrelevant.

seeker · 14/01/2011 19:49

"People with Downs Syndrome often won't have to face the stresses and strains of everyday life that most of us face."

No? Tell that to my friend's son - tortured by sexual desire he is unlikely ever to be able to consummate.

Bonsoir · 14/01/2011 20:39

Quite seeker. People with Down's Syndrome cannot achieve the things that most people find fulfilling and give life meaning.

It is one thing to be a child with Down's Syndrome (living with loving parents, siblings etc), another to be an adult with Down's Syndrome and to not be able to achieve independence in the normal sense of the word.

KalokiMallow · 14/01/2011 20:46

Just to point out again. 90% refers to 90% of people who were
a)offered the tests (figures I found on an NHS site say 5% of expectant mothers)
b) decided to take the test (someone earlier said 60%)
c) found out that the test showed signs of Downs syndrome (couldn't find average figures)

So although it is 90%, it is 90% of about 2.5% of all expectant mothers. It is also not 90% of all babies with Down's syndrome.

Bearing in mind point b is also self selective, as you are more likely to take the test (knowing the risks) if you do not wish to have a child with Down's syndrome.

So it's not as high as it first appears.

Midori I know you asked Buzz but as I feel the same I thought I'd answer too. If I had a child and then found out it had a disability then I would have to deal with it and find ways to cope. There are no other options at that point.

But if I found out beforehand then I would use the information to make a choice (based on DH and my physical and emotional abilities) whether I could give that child a good life. I couldn't in all honesty say that a disabled child cared for by myself and DH would have a good quality of life. And if I can avoid putting a child through it, then I will. Especially given the knowledge that there are a fair few hereditary problems likely to affect the child and/or my husband as we get older. A non-disabled child will struggle, but it will be easier for them than a disabled child.

LillianGish · 14/01/2011 21:03

Just to clarify 2shoes, my use of the word choice in respect of Riven was with reference to her post "We were even told to turn off her life support as 'she will be a vegetable and totally dependant'". I have nothing but admiration for her and every other parent of a severely disabled child.

eidsvold · 14/01/2011 21:15

Bonsoir - what sort of things are you talking about?

midori1999 · 14/01/2011 21:36

Yes Seeker, because there are no sexually frustrated adults without Downs about and people with Downs never have relationships or sex... Hmm

Kaloki, thankyou for answering. Surely all tne same resons you would have terminated a baby with Down still apply? So why not give the baby up?

And disabled is a subjective term. I don't view my DS as disabled at all. Some people with Downs are more articulate and intelligent than some people without Downs. Some even successfully run their own businesses. Times have moved on and people with Downs now have more opportunities than ever.

KalokiMallow · 14/01/2011 21:45

That's a good question, and to be honest I can't guarantee that I wouldn't have to give the baby up.

It's easier for me to say for definite about abortion as I personally do not feel that it is a baby until it is born, and therefore don't feel quite the same about aborting as I do about giving a child up for adoption. That isn't to say that aborting wouldn't break my heart, but I think giving a child up would break my heart more. And if I'm honest, with the latter I am aware I would be viewed worse than with the former.

LittleBeads · 14/01/2011 21:46

I'd be interested to know what sort of things too.

There does seem to be (from posts here and parents of disabled children I know in RL) a real lack of proper information shared with parents when they go through these tests.
It's almost as if doctors are presenting worst case scenarios as 'this is how it will be'. Do they put you in touch with people like SCOPE/SASBAH etc? I guess it'd be a bit awkward meeting up with inspirational people with the same condition when it's because you're making a decision whether or not to abort.
Are we moving towards a more inclusive society with better inclusion in schools/workplaces etc and so better awareness? It doesn't look like it by the 90% figure - I just wonder how it'd be if people were more aware.

donkeyderby · 14/01/2011 22:13

Most disabilities aren't detectable before birth. The aborting of babies with detectable disabilities has not stopped disabled children being born and then surviving in greater numbers than ever before. Then in life, people go on to develop physical and mental disabilities, have sudden accidents, get dementia, cancer etc. Perhaps that 90% isn't a very significant figure.

I think someone asked why disabled babies can't be 'euthenised' at birth. I think there have to be points at which we as a society have some sort of moral guidelines or we descend into the sort of world where Nazi ideologies become attractive.

To the person who mentioned a person with DS being 'tortured' by sexual desire....people with learning disabilities shag. Sorry if that horrifies some people but it's true.

2shoes · 14/01/2011 22:26

seeker Fri 14-Jan-11 19:49:54
"People with Downs Syndrome often won't have to face the stresses and strains of everyday life that most of us face."

No? Tell that to my friend's son - tortured by sexual desire he is unlikely ever to be able to consummate.

that has to be the silliest post
people with Downs can have sex, they can marry, same with people with CP and lots of disability s .

HumphreyCobbler · 14/01/2011 22:30

How upsetting that someone on here thinks that because I had a tragic termination of a baby with a life limiting disorder (not Down's Syndrome) I would therefore be unable to cope with any future child who happened to have special needs.

Possibly the most insensitive thing I have ever heard about my particular situation.

I would care and love for any child I was able to bear. I am grieved to this day that I lost a son who had NO chance of living.

Thank you to all those on this thread who don't share this opinion.