To find the Christian faith difficult to understand?

[redshinyshoes]

Firstly, I am not looking for a fight, trying to upset anyone and I can see why this may sound ignorant but I am genuinly curious. I was brought up in a very atheist household where anyone religious was treated with suspision but as an adult I have a few Christian friends and would consider myself agnostic. I want to know (but don't feel I can ask my Christian friends as don't want to offend) whether Christians believe the bible word for word or see it as more metaphorical? If it's word for word, how otherwise down to earth intelligent people can fathom a virgin birth, the Earth only being a few thousand years old and the sea parting?

Well the idea of a sphere is well established in greek phil, look at pythagoras, herodotus, plato and aristotle for example. Theres plenty more.

meant to say, ever since then its been widely taught, it wasn't lost as an idea. Look right through medieval history. Its fairly obvious when you think about it for a while.

I have not yet read the thread but this is so bizarre. I was thinking of posting an almost identical question just this morning - although encompassing all faiths, not just christianity. Will now read the thread with interest.....

Yes I'm sure-however it was widely believed to be a pear/ wonky diamond shape.

Lady of the Manor, I do not have "Faith" in science - there is no crossover between what I currently accept as fact, and what religious people believe.

I have been an active member of churches, have read the bible, attempted to walk the walk - but nothing, zip, nada. I have never, ever actually managed to believe or have faith. I only became happy when I realised I didn't have to.

Relgionists have lots of lovely reasons for this - I wasn't "opening my heart," or even that god had "hardened my heart" for some reason, or that I wasn't reading the right bits of the bible, or I was being too literal, or whatever. I eventually came to realise that I was looking for something that just wasn't there for me.

All the available evidence at this time suggests to me that there is no after-life, no god or gods, no separate spiritual existance. I find that immensely comforting. Should I ever be corrected with irrefutable evidence, then I will at once change my opinion - because it is not based on faith.

Sadly the "fact" is indeed "theory" until proven otherwise and as you can't prove a theory with a theory it will never become fact, there fore you believe with good FAITH what you are told or what you believe or what scientists are saying is fact, then you take that with good faith that you agree.

LadyOfTheManor - sorry but there is a massive difference between having faith in something for which no evidence exists and is completely unprovable either way (like the existence of God), and believing that a scientific theory which is well supported by the available evidence is the best available explanation. That doesn't need a "leap of faith", simply a reasonable level of understanding of the theory and why the available evidence supports (ie does not contradict) it.

In science, very few things are "facts", and practically all explanations are "theories" - all are subject to checking against new evidence as it becomes available, and those which are accepted have stood up to that test.

Scientists do not believe in theories because they have been told them, they believe in them because they can check them out for themselves. Any idea which cannot be checked scientifically remains a "hypothesis", and will never make the status of "theory".

Theory is not the same as hypothesis.

Evolution, for example, is supported by so much evidence that it is seen as fact by many. However, for scientists, and atheists like me, if new evidence emerged that demonstrated actually, for example, humans came from space ships 6000 years ago, then the theory would be changed to fit that evidence.

You can't prove a theory beyond any doubt at all without all of the evidence in the universe, which we obviously can't access. But it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt, with the caveat always there that future evidence may change it.

How is that the same as faith?

One hopes that a hypothesis will either be disproved, or replaced by a better hypothesis, or both.

In contrast, one does not seek proof for faith.

I think that is the difference?

It was widely believed to be a sphere. Lady. I have quoted evidence, you have only mentioned the bible. If you are going to contradict me you need more evidence than that.

And you seem to have misunderstood the rules of science as well.

Aw Buzz, cant they have believed it was a heart shape? Hearts are so nice, I want to believe it was a heart (better than a wonky diamond or spades anyway)

You're supposed to find it difficult to understand, that's what ineffable means.

AMuminScotland - that is an interesting idea. So basically you are saying that god did not design man in his own image, but just let evolution take it's course, waiting for the development of self-awarenesss in any species... If evolution had turned out differently Jesus might have been a dolphin?

I have never heard this before. How widespread is it? I guess it does allow god and evolution to be reconciled at one level. But it does raise other questions, about the nature of god, and particularly about morality.

As I understand it,it is an important tenet of religion that morality is god given. But human morality is strongly linked to the kind of sexual reproduction and social systems we have evolved. Dolphin, wildebeast or stick insect morality would look quite different wouldn't it? (...can't
help thinking of all those animated animal movies here ;-) )

Also how does the idea of Eden, Adam and Eve and the fall fit into this interpretation?

AMuminScotland - I know what you mean, I did actually study evolution (although it mightn't seem like it) about 20 years ago too, although not much human evolution and I have whole pile of dusty unreadbooks on human evoluion beside my bed...will get to them in the end

Crazycanuck - Shame about the aquatic ape theory - I did quite like the idea of that, mostly because I love the sea...

Himalaya - It's not something I've read anywhere, but since I haven't read any theology in about 15 years, my knowledge of current thinking is nearly as out of date as my reading on evolution so it could well be out there!

It's just when I try to reconcile my acceptance of -

1. evolution
2. free will and (general) non-interference by God
3. God being ultimately responsible for the creation of the universe and wanting a relationship with us

• I can't see a better explanation.

I get round it by taking "created in God's image" to mean in terms of self-awareness and the capacity for moral choice, rather than 2 arms etc. Anyway, if both men and women are created in God's image (which one of the two creation myths in genesis says) then it can't be a detailed copy of a physical body, as God does not have gender, and people do.

Morality - I think any kind of self-awareness brings the possibility of moral choices and altruism, as we are capable of seeing things that are bigger than our own biological urge to pass on our genes and benefit our offspring. The morality Jesus taught - "Love God and love others as yourself" doesn't say exactly what you have to do in order to follow it. If we were insects or dolphins, then how we showed our love for each other might be different. We'd offer each other a nice leaf or fish instead of a cup of tea, but we could still not harm each other, help each other, etc. Sexual morality is more about humans than it is about God - there's always been a mix between why religion says you should be faithful (honesty, loyalty, not hurting others) and why society says you should do it (inheritance mainly, plus men thinking they own their women)

I don't believe there was an Eden, Adam, or Eve - they are stories that people wrote to try to explain the world as they saw it, and their understanding of God.

I don't beleive but my friend does (in a big way). That's his choice and as long as he doesn't push it onto me then I'm happy. In life we all believe different things and that's part of being human, as long as your a good person who cares if you believe in God or whatever. I think religion plays to much in our society and should be more of a personal thing. I think the recent programs on TV have been very good as it shows that in the last 500 years science is proving why things happen. On the plus side... When the bells ring Sunday morning I know I have spent to long in bed.

sounds like you're permanently asleep Stuart lol

And to add to what AMIS said, I don't believe in the fall. I believe that for some reason I don't entirely understand God allows suffering. However by coming to earth as Jesus, He showed He was willing to suffer too, in the most horrible way, and then die in torment. Not only that, but to show that death is not the end, Jesus rose from the dead. Finally at Pentecost he sent the Holy Spirit to work in the world and give us strength.

I think you should talk to your friends and ask their opinions, it really depends on the individual. I am Christian and I don't take everything the Bible says literally. The way I see it, if I wrote an account of events I saw yesterday, my account would be different to someone elses, due to different cultures, background, understanding, opinions etc. The Bible was written in a totally different social climate, so in my opinion that explains some things that I don't agree with that are in the Bible

I quite like the fact that it can be applied to so many different cultures and backgrounds. The fundamentals should remain the same if it's to be called Christianity, though, like the bits about Jesus being the Christ and dying to take the punishment for sins. Once you start meddling with these bits then I'm not sure how it is Christianity any more.

The rest is open to interpretation - which means that people from all ages, cultures and time periods can relate to it.

Disclaimer: Sorry, I'm being very lazy and haven't read the thread so this will probably be way out of context.

I don't get Christianity. The whole, 'you have free will but if you don't choose the right way you'll go to hell' bit.

It's like god saying, "Here, choose a drink. Any drink you like. They're all poison and will kill you except this one. But really, choose any of them...."

How is that free will exactly.

The Christian god seems like a jealous, petty bully to me.

But that's just my opinion.

I'm also somewhat baffled by anyone who thinks that, even if a god did exist, that this god would actually take any interest in the affairs of the individual tiny little beings he/she had created, right down to listening to individual bleating requests for their lives to be made better. Talk about an overinflated sense of importance in the grand scheme of things!

some people believe horoscopes. some people believe anything they want to believe if helps them make sense of the universe and their life in some way. some people believe stuff because it's the done thing in their family / community.

other people deal better with the concept that maybe we don't understand everything yet but it's better to accept that (and try to find answers) rather than make up or follow superstitions and supernatural stuff to fill in the gaps.

i just hope those who believe don't feel too shortchanged when they realise there is no afterlife, no god up on a cloud, no divine retribution and no reward in paradise.

AnnieLobesder....no the free will stuff is completely contradicted by christian teaching which is full of prophesy and seeing into the future. for example, jesus is meant to tell his disciples "one of you will betray me", thus predicting judas and his actions. so where is the free will? if acts and events can be predicted and prophesised there is no free will.

there is a very interesting debate to be had about free will and whether is truly exists from a philosophical / scientific standpoint.

MyrhrrBS and AMIS (and anyone else who cares to chip in) - but isn't the idea of The Fall fairly central to Christianity - that Christ came to atone for Adam's sin to reconcile man and god etc..

Everyone has a belief in something even if it is in themselves, which is probably the most worrying belief of all. I find it interesting how those who don't believe can act as if they are able to disinterestedly and objectively make make astounding (and ignorant) judgements that they would tear down Christians for making. We all make truth claims, lets be honest about that.

I am a Christian because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God who came to earth and died and rose again to reconcile us to God. He is full of grace and love. There's nothing we can do to make him love us more or less - therefore it is not about what we do. Yet he calls us to live a life that honours others out of gratefulness to his sacrifice.

The Bible is the story of the people of God and God's plan to rescue them. It is searingly honest about their struggles and their arguments with God, but ultimately it is a story of God's faithfulness to his people. It is fundamental to our faith as without it we would not know about Jesus.

Yes, Christians disagree, because we are all humans and therefore fallible. I am a Christian because I believe it is true, but I also believe that being in a Church as I am and part of a 2 thousand year history of belief, I am held to account and challenged in my faith a lot more than those lone rangers who can make it up as they go along (believers or not).