To find the Christian faith difficult to understand?

[redshinyshoes]

Firstly, I am not looking for a fight, trying to upset anyone and I can see why this may sound ignorant but I am genuinly curious. I was brought up in a very atheist household where anyone religious was treated with suspision but as an adult I have a few Christian friends and would consider myself agnostic. I want to know (but don't feel I can ask my Christian friends as don't want to offend) whether Christians believe the bible word for word or see it as more metaphorical? If it's word for word, how otherwise down to earth intelligent people can fathom a virgin birth, the Earth only being a few thousand years old and the sea parting?

The Youngs Literal Translation is as close to the originals as you can get, translated by Robert Young in 1898 A.D.

btw i can't see anyone in this day and age taking the bible totally literally. if you read it all you just couldn't. some of it even seems to contradict itself (see my note on culture and human writers above). i don't see sarah palin sacrificing goats all the time.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou, I agree. And so how can we atheists possibly take you seriously?

aye but the creation follow does actually follow the same (roughly) order that evolution would have taken doesn't it?

You can't have plants/animals without light, water etc. Plants and animals were on earth before humans. - 'dats what the scientists pretty much say too

But things can evolve out of nothing.

If you leave a piece of bread long enough eventually it will become alive. Put it under a microscope and see what you get, living things!

Erh your not going to write - and God created a chicken - oh and then he created some land for it to walk on and on the next day a light so it cold see its feet cause it kept tripping over the land it walked on - etc

Even early writers would have followed a logial order.

Well I could ask how I could take atheists seriously as when you actually talk to atheists they all have different things to say about their lack of faith (except they do have a fiath - they have a faith that there is no God ).

I've never met 2 atheists who had the exact same reasons for why they didn't believe in any religion (or any other supernatural thing) - and atheists who believe in ghosts, etc).

Actually - come to think of it I don't think I've ever met any 2 humans (of any faith, lack of faither, race, etc etc) that all believe/disbelieve in the same things for the same reasons

the bible has been changed and even hard parts removed. Im sure I read that when people came to Jesus and calloed him their lord and the son of god he asked that they didnt call him that as was not.
If christianity can this much wrong I dont know what you can believe really, calling Jesus son of god and even him disagreeing. The holy trinity is also metaphorical but some church leaders still end up praying to 3 seperate divine beings.

all in all, I dont believe in Christianity. But you can interpret the bible however you wish and so find a way to practise that you are comfortable and thats no bad thing.

ermm no Frequent - the bread will already have bacteria on it - bacteria is EVERYWHERE - it's just that some bacteria when mixed together with other stuff on the bread grow and turn nasty - if the bread wasnt there then the bacteria wouldn't grow and turn into mould

(this is why those "anti-bacterial" adverts piss me off - you can't sodding get rid of the stuff it's just "there").............but on the point of this thread - how did it get "there"

anyhow - on that note - as I know where this thread will go (absolutely no where - or rather the same way as these threads always go} - I'm goign to go and clean my house (haha)

Basically it depends. Some "fire and brimstone", hard-line Christians follow it fairly literally. They're generally pretty unpleasant, homophobic (among other things) people. Although personally, I can almost have more respect for them (not the homophobic bit) since they're at least having the courage of their convictions as it were.

Others, realising that huge amounts of the Bible are just not acceptable/plausible, take the "I'll believe the bits I like the sound of, and if there's a bit I don't like the sound of, I'll say that bit's a metaphor".

Same with the contradictions.

Red Shiny

I am a Christian who goes to church every week. I believe that the "supernatural" things in the bible are metaphorical, although that is not to say that they don't contain important truths/meaning.

A bit like say Shakespeare's Othello - it is not "true" in the sense that it is a work of fiction, but at the same time it does contain truths about the frailty of the human condition and the destructive power of jealousy etc.

I believe that Jesus' teachings/philosophy of how to live your life in the Gospels are inherently true.

I think many Christians and indeed clergy have a similar view - personally I think it is a shame that the church isn't more upfront about acknowledging the diversity of Christian belief. Yes, there are people who believe in the Bible in a literal sense, and who am I to say that they shouldnt, but the problem is this then makes non-Christians think that believing in what to most people in the modern age seems presposterous, is a requirement of being part of the faith.

People (and I say this as like you I was brought up by atheists) who do not have much to do with Christianity think that it is a club which you can only join if you can tick certain boxes (eg I believe the Bible is literally true, I believe in Heaven and Hell etc). But it is not like that, I don't think - much more of a dialectical journey of discovery about the faith, with you coming to understand more and more deeply as time goes on.

So with Cameltoe

I'm a practising Christian and do genuinely feel that everyone probably believes something a bit different - that's human nature, we can't all share the same opinion. But this is how it breaks down for me.....

Yes I believe in a higher power 'God' no I don't believe in a white robed chap watching us from his throne. Yes I believe Jesus was God manifested as human, yes I do believe in the Virgin birth that is the whole point of a miracle, if it was easy to believe then we'd have no need of faith.

I believe the bible was written by people who at the time described to the best of their ability without the scientific knowledge we have today and again, as people wrote it it will be opinion based. But I will also say that religion (unfortunately especially Christianity) has been corrupted over a thousand years by greedy men looking to gain power and control in the past and probably to a certain extent today - again an unfortunate side effect of the human condition.

I believe we still see miracles every day and just because we may understand the 'mechanics' behind them makes them no less a miracle. Take pregnancy for example - we know exactly how it happens, why it happens but it is still a miracle when it does happen - ask anyone who takes years to conceive. I do not feel that 'God' and science have to be mutually exclusive - 'he' made us in his image and that means we must be able to understand, even do the things 'he' did/does.

I don't agree with the common held view, if God exists why do bad things happen. Bad things happen to everybody - how can a person grow, mature and learn to appreciate the good if they never experience bad?

But I will finish by saying that I don't think you have to believe in God to take something from the teachings of Jesus - what's not to take....love, compassion and tolerance of our fellow man. The world would be a much better place if people would try it.

Here endeth todays sermon

I was practically born a Catholic - my upbringing was literally steeped in religion, even though my parents are reasonably liberal and didn't force us to go to mass or anything. I am also a scientist and I believe in evolution. I don't really believe much of what is written in the bible, but I agree with a lot of what Jesus taught: 'Do unto others as you would have done unto you' 'Love thy neighbour' and especially 'Judge not and ye shall not be judge' (was that even Jesus?) I would like this kind of philosophy to underpin my life, but I'm not sure that I would call myself a Christian because it sounds so pompous. I think people like to call themselves Christian and therefore think that they ARE Christians, but being truly a Christian is about how you behave rather than what you believe.

judged

We are all different, and tend to have different ideas on what is true and what is metaphor in the bible. I personally don't believe in a literal creation that took 6 days, and think that evolution explains some of how the world has developed, but is not the whole answer. I think that there are core beliefs that Christians share that makes them Christian, for example belief in one God is pretty fundamental! To me, what is essential is "to love God with all your heart soul and mind and to love your neighbour as yourself". I obviously believe a lot more than that besides, but that is a common basis for all Christians to share.

In fact I'll add a small addendum - is the Virgin birth really that much a leap?

Are there not many women out there with their own birth children who have never had sex with a man?

CamelToeAndWine, I don't think that's why some of us believe parts of the Bible are metaphorical. Why should the whole thing have to be literal? I believe the parts that have been historically researched. Other parts are stories that can help us to understand the nature of God, without having to be literal accounts.

Red Shiny

Just one other thing I wanted to say having thought further ...

Reading this thread, the impression comes of a faith which is very individual, with each person having their own sense of what they believe, how they understand what it is to be a Christian. And that is an important element.

But the other key thing about the faith is a parallel emphasis on Community, and relationships with others; i.e. living out life in a related, joined up way with other people. I live in a traditional rural village up north where the role of the church is still perhaps not too far removed from what it might have been 100 years ago. Most people go to church from time to time, the kids from the little school go regularly - no-one is particularly fervent, but it is a community thing.

The interesting thing is people say "Oh, I like church, for myself and for my kids, but its really just the community side of it I like, I don't really believe very fervently" as if, because its the community element they get something out of, this means they are not "real" Christians. But being in communion with others IS being a Christian. A good part of the faith is about DOING, not about what you THINK or believe.

I always used to go to chapel evensong at college because I loved the atmosphere and the singing. I used to say to myself, I am not really a christian I just go cos I like the music and the quiet. As I've got older, I much more tend to see God IN those things that I find beautiful. So if you feel moved by music at a church service, its not "just the music" - because the music IS God/the divine/the transcendent/holy - or whatever other inadequate label we might try to use for something that can't quite be labelled.

The impression I get is that the bible isn't actually the most important part of Christianity - I always thought it was. I wonder whether people who practice other religions (Islam, Judaism) have a similar outlook and the only difference in faith are the actual books?

and the rituals of course.. but the fundamental messages are the same?

the Bible is an important part of Christianity but not the only important part.

redshinyshoes, I think that Christianity is about deciding to follow Christ. But it is the Bible where we can find out for ourselves about his life. It's also where we read about all the circumstances before and after his life, such as the prophecies before, and the lives of his disciples afterwards.

Bumpsadaisy, that's a lovely post. I agree absolutely with you