to think undergraduates shouldn't be routinely given reader cards for the British Library?

[OTheHugeManatee]

Yes, I know that it's one of the UK's only copyright libraries. Yes, I know it's a public resource. Yes I know, accessibility, widening availability, yadda yadda. Yes, I'm probably being a mardy old trout.

But since they changed the rules to allow undergraduates to get BL reader cards, it's become overrun with entitled adolescents. Half the time you can't even get a seat.

I'm a mature student, doing postgrad study part-time at some distance from my institution, and I don't have a university library to work in. I have very small windows of time between work and other commitments when I can do library research for essays. The BL is pretty much the only resource within reasonable travelling distance from me where I can access the books I need and work quietly for a few hours. So when I turn up at the BL and find it swarming with people who could be somewhere else, and that it's impossible to get a seat, it pisses me off.

It's one thing if they are doing a special research project on material which is only available at the BL. But for ordinary undergrad stuff, why? Universities have their own libraries FFS. Can't these whippersnappers go and chew gum and flirt in those?

mele - .

im going to get shot here but....

you dont have to tell anyone you are photocopying it, or how much you are photocopying, i didny think anyone actually paid attention to that rule.

If you are having problems they are also experienced by under grads and you abu to think they have less point in being there than you.

'No - needs to be open to be a paternoster (thats the scary thing...)'

Explain, for the thick among us?

robynlou - all students that are members of SCONUL Universities (ie most of them) should be able to use any other uni library during the vacation, see page www.sconul.ac.uk/using_other_libraries/vacation.html. So yes, you were lucky to be based in Cambridge, but anyone near Oxford can use the Bodleian - or indeed if they're super-keen they can travel to these places.

re undergrads using the BL, well again only the super-keen should really need to, if they're looking to do research beyond the bounds of their reading lists, since it's the combined job of teaching staff and librarians to make sure that undergrad reading lists are catered for by the uni libraries, not that that's always the case [says the academic librarian...].

I always managed to find a seat in Humanities 2, but haven't been to the BL in a couple of years.

Oh NorwegianMoon that smarts re photocopying! There are a bazillion signs next to every photocopies (or should be) pointing out that by copying more than the allowed amount (1 chapter or 5%) you are breaking the law, and it is possible for people to be found out. I've had to chase people out of our photocopying room who were stood there just copying an entire book.

"you dont have to tell anyone you are photocopying it, or how much you are photocopying, i didny think anyone actually paid attention to that rule."

The universities and the Copyright Licensing Agency pay attention as it is illegal to photocopy whole books etc. The CLA can be quite vigorous in enforcing the rights of the copyright holders.

oh, I didn't realise that jumpjockey, I didn't have a totally unfair advantage then (though it being just a cycle ride from my house was very handy!)

Our library really was hopeless - you had to literally hotfoot it straight to the library once you'd got the reading lists to have half a chance of getting anything useful.
I used to get things out and run up huge fines because if I still needed them and took them in to be renewed they'd take them away as they'd always been reserved by someone else I once had to have a payment plan because I'd run up such huge fines

I used to ask for most of the crucial books as birthday/xmas presents though.

It's just far too expensive to photocopy much, though. It is also not very good for students with some kinds of SN (ie., worse than a print book).

Undergraduates in Arts subjects might be expected to read 10 or so books a week - you surely couldn't expect them to do that at 20p a sheet!!

(See, I see both sides, I'm not just moaning about undergraduates ... )

My university library could only seat about 200 people at maximum, far less if you needed a computer. In a university consisting of thousands of students (a London university) it is very difficult to find adequate library space, especially if you are working on a important project (and yes most young students do actually work for their degree!) it can be a nightmare. Also the BL often had resources that my uni did not and were only available at the BL. So I'm afraid I think yabu.

they let undergrads in now?! Dear god what is the world coming too......They really should not need it.... they can get electronic copies sent to thier home libs of any journal's not avaialable and for rare books inter library loans.....yanbu

Oh My God allnightlong the one in the Hague made me actually gasp.
That's some good shit

Jumpjockey said: '...all students that are members of SCONUL Universities (ie most of them) should be able to use any other uni library during the vacation, see page www.sconul.ac.uk/using_other_libraries/vaca tion.html. '

During the Christmas break, public libraries and University libraries (ALL those I checked for a different reason) were closed from 17 Dec-4 January. The BL would have been one of the few options in London to study if you haven't got a proper quiet room at home.

What about the Grazia readers though? And they are there, however hard-working some of the UG's might be. Can we agree that they should be ceremonially rounded up and hounded into the Starbucks over the road?

@LRD
How do I know this? Well, because if I can find those books in the university library, I should imagine they can too!

Today I had a student email me because she 'didn't know what books to read before term starts' (on Monday - !).

I pointed out that last term I had sent everyone a reading list so they could get started over Xmas vac.

Her reply: 'Oh yeah, I didn't read that. Can I suggest that in future tutors send just a precis of important information?'

headdesk

@Revolting

ow ow ow ow ow.

Completely recognisable though.

Camaleon - I work in a major university library and our last day was 23rd December. Can't account for London, of course...

Anyhow, HugeManatee, YNBreallyU. The sad thing is, one of the number one things UGs complain about on NSSs is the lack of books in libraries. Actually much of the reason for not buying books is not the Starbucksification of the university, but the fact that e-journal subs are going up massively and they are more in demand than books.

Ho hum.

OhBugger Yep. That is a verbatim quotation. Well not quite; hers had no puncutation or caps at all.

Ouch. That does not sound fun, RP.

Did you send her a suitably scathing paraphrase of 'fuck off and when you get there fuck off'?

I'm sending mine bibliography with the shelfmarks on it this time as I do think it can be hard to find things ... what amuses/annoys is that they don't seem to realize that I'm perfectly capable of walking into the library, up the stairs and checking the book is (dusty) on its shelf.

It then rings a little hollow when they say they didn't find it!

most unis have a pathetic amount of books, every one i know always photocopied the important bits so that we could all get the data needed to not fail. had we all had to wait our turn with the books available wed have all failed as the work wouldnt have got done. its how we all got by!

late night photocopying, nothing like it

Revolting!

I have a very pompous line that I trot out on occasions like that about email with staff being formal correspondence, and as such needing to contain conventional salutations and forms of address.

They squirm, and then come up with the most convoluted Victorianesque constructions you've ever seen.

Revolting it's unkind of me but I was glad to see someone was sharing my pain.

Maybe we should have a thread on the worst of these...

Revolting I suspect that I am being extremely U. I'm a crabby old gimmer juggling work and study, was really spoiled with access to a copyright library the first time round, no doubt have no idea how shitty the facilities in some places are and am doubtless jealous of the fresh-faced youth reading Grazia studying hard in the BL. And almost certainly an appalling intellectual snob with no appreciation of the trials of young people today into the bargain.

But I still with the BL were populated exclusively by boffins and/or grownups.

to be pedantic OP there are 5 copyright libraries in the uk (and one in dublin) - the BL, Bodleian, Cambridge UL, nat library of wales (aberystwyth) and nat lib of scotland (edin). so you could get your material in any of them, no?

i once went to a conference in the arts tower in sheffield and scared myself silly by staying in the paternoster at the top when it goes sideways. for whoever was asking, this is what it is: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster

apols for bad typing, baby sleeping on me

Bugger we do that and ours just go - "Eh?"