to think undergraduates shouldn't be routinely given reader cards for the British Library?

[OTheHugeManatee]

Yes, I know that it's one of the UK's only copyright libraries. Yes, I know it's a public resource. Yes I know, accessibility, widening availability, yadda yadda. Yes, I'm probably being a mardy old trout.

But since they changed the rules to allow undergraduates to get BL reader cards, it's become overrun with entitled adolescents. Half the time you can't even get a seat.

I'm a mature student, doing postgrad study part-time at some distance from my institution, and I don't have a university library to work in. I have very small windows of time between work and other commitments when I can do library research for essays. The BL is pretty much the only resource within reasonable travelling distance from me where I can access the books I need and work quietly for a few hours. So when I turn up at the BL and find it swarming with people who could be somewhere else, and that it's impossible to get a seat, it pisses me off.

It's one thing if they are doing a special research project on material which is only available at the BL. But for ordinary undergrad stuff, why? Universities have their own libraries FFS. Can't these whippersnappers go and chew gum and flirt in those?

Lucky you, camaleon. It's usually busiest during university vacations, when the North American academics flock over to do their research and when all the UG's from other universities around the country come home, but still have essays to write and exams to study for.

Best tip -- go early. Arrive at 8:45 if you can, 15 minutes before opening, and queue. Use the coin-operated lockers, and occupy a desk as soon as you can.

I'm not giving away all my seat-finding secrets though :-)

I very much agree though that UGs below 3rd year shouldn't AUTOMATICALLY get entry to the BL; they should have a letter from their tutor explaining why they have no other option.

It's the nature of the flirting I object to, anyway.

Back in my day what you did was turn up early to get a seat within peeking distance of where your chosen flirtee was, and then Worked Very Hard all day so that you could silently and coyly flutter your eyelids over your enormous tome with the very occasional hair swish or gentle titter at your book (just to show how engaged you were with your reading).

Now they beep at each other with technology. Loudly and incessantly. And snap gum.

I come with Library porn....
curiousexpeditions.org/?p=78

Camaleon It happened to me for the first time this week that I couldn't get a seat. I guess the reason I'm harrumphing like an old bag is that Tuesday was the sole, precious, single day I had free to read journal articles that are really important for my work but the only UK copies are at the Bodleian or the BL. And it just riled me, as all these kids have all day every day to study.

Hmph. Maybe I'm just jealous. I certainly had no idea how lucky I was when I was an undergrad.

I must be very lucky. I have just used the BL every day during the Christmas break (unless closed, obviously). No problem finding seats. No rushing to be there first... Maybe the rooms I normally use are emptier.

I have had problems finding a seat 2 or 3 times, but I have always managed. I believe it is better to be in a place that is overused than underused. Would worry me much more to have all those resources and always finding plenty of empty seats.

What am I doing wrong, camaleon? I've found the only place I know I can get a seat is the manuscripts room, but you're not really meant to be there unless you're looking at manuscripts so it isn't much help - where's good to sit?

C'mon, share!

sounds like you have seat-finding secrets too :-)

at Bugger.

I bet there were annoying flirtees in 'your day' too!

allnightlong Oh, library porn!

My old college library was in a former 18th-century church, all classical arches and gold leafwork.

Mantee your being rather presumptuous. How on earth do you know they have all day?
Many of them probably have jobs and family too.
I supprised that someone could get so wound up for not getting a seat, when it's only happened to you once! Have you always had such a sense of entitlement?

C'mon Beanlet, Camaleon. Spill!

That sounded harsher than I meant should have used smilies!

No secrets... I normally use the Social Sciences (or Humanities) readers room. I tend to be there early because I wake up early but have found places arriving later too.

Now I am worried that I am wasting my good luck boasting about this and I will not find a place ever again...

we had paternosters in ours... (bloody scary things...)

Actually I'm lucky because my research requires me to work in one of the specialist reading rooms. So it's usually slightly less busy, but even then afternoons in the vacations are a bit hairy, and it closes at 5:30 so you have to find somewhere else to hang out after that.

My favorite library used to be The Mitchel Library in glasgow before the renovations it was in a beautiful building but inside was very much a time warp of the 60's and 70's and a bit scruffy I loved it. I haven't seen it since the renovations mainly because I moved away but also because I was a bit pissed off they were updating it and ruining the atmosphere.

when I was an undergrad in cardiff I could get a readers ticket to the UL in cambridge, as cam is my hometown. If I hadn't had access to that library there's no way I would've got my first - my uni library was abysmal. I used to feel very guilty for having such an advantage over my course mates purely because of where my parents lived.

Mantee did you have books in that bag?!

I'm just jealous really I miss living in London. I've often fantasised about hiding in BL and seeing if I could get locked in, then read anything I felt like during the night.
In reality I'm sure they have good security and I'd be shit scared because it's bound to be spooky.

LittleRedDragon - it's 'cool' to be seen at the Bristish Library?! I don't live anywhere near so don't go, but love libraries and books, so perhaps am more 'cool' than I have previously assumed myself to be?!!

With regard to universities culling their books, it's happening further down the education system as well. I once went to look around, then had an interview (didn't get it) at a lovely primary school, in a nice area, with a brand new library. I was shocked and horrified when the headteacher said she had got rid of all the nonfiction books because 'children can just use Google these days.' Yes they can, but I think it is much better to find a book all about what they want to know, written in language they can understand. I imagine looking on Google will give kids lots of results that just aren't child friendly the way they are written. Plenty of fiction books in this lovely library, but not all children like fiction books. I know my brother read a scientific encyclopedia in bed every night for years. (I thought him odd, but that was what he was interested in!) I just thought this Head was risking putting a lot of children off reading, and off finding things out. I once did supply in a class of 8 and 9 year olds. They had to research animals and write facts. I was told to allow 3 kids to use computers while the others had books, and I worked with a group. At the end of the lesson the kids on the computers were the only ones not to have written anything down. So it saddens me that a lot of people think books don't have a place in our society anymore. The Internet is marvellous but not the be all and end all.

Hmm - maybe I've just been unlucky then.

One of my students last year was an incredibly clever, academic type - she was looking at research material some PhD students wouldn't have got to - and it was really nice to be able to go and track down some stuff that she couldn't access from the Bodleian (because it's also a copyright library that doesn't allow borrowing). To contrast with that, I was sitting behind someone who read Grazia for about an hour (which is a feat in itself, as it's about 30 pages!) before sighing at her generic biography and texting people for a while.

It's not as if it's difficult to tell who needs to be there and who doesn't!

allnight it was her knitting bag.

Would we say the London eye was one giant big fat paternoster?

sims2fan - I agree, I bought DS an encylopedia of Ancient Greece in an Oxfam bookshop and the guy said 'no kid reads encylopedias' to which his colleague said 'I did'...:) Ds lugs the bloody thing everythere and spent one family meal describing military attacks (complete with actions) to anyone who would listen.... (I love him :) )

sim - yes, hugely trendy! It makes sense - nicer cafe than any university caff I've been to, plenty of pretty stuff to ooh over, and you look impressively intelligent so there is a great excuse to be there for flirting purposes. If I'd lived in London when I was an undergraduate I would have loved it.

I hate the idea that the internet should replace books, but also, why should a university library carry 40-odd copies of whatever the base text is? With us, undergraduates get fed up because they think the university should have 50 copies of the Canterbury Tales so they can all borrow a copy in Week One. But they'd be dead space/money for the other 51 weeks of the year, so students are asked to buy their own copy, and a lot of them aren't well off so find it hard.

There's not a good answer really, so I'm not just carping for the sake of carping (I hope).

No - needs to be open to be a paternoster (thats the scary thing...)