To think this childminder is barking?

[emkana]

Friend's ds is 16 months old, has been going to childminder four days a week since September. Recently he has started pinching or hitting the other children on occasion. The cm has now said to my friend that she can't tolerate violence in her sitting, that she suspects deep-seated parenting problems and that she will give notice unless he stops. Is it me or is that completely mad when talking about a 16 month old?

I suspect there may be an ulterior motive here and CM may have someone lined up to take the place (possibly for 5 days a week, so better for her financially)

I was once told out of the blue by a former CM that my DSs behaviour was poor, they were attacking other children etc (had never done this at home or school), a week or so later something was said about parenting courses etc and the following week she gave us notice as she felt we were not supporting her! She filled their places immediately - with girls. I think tbh she didnt want to mind boys anymore and used this as an excuse. As far as I know she has never minded any boys since then...

The DSs started at another childminder the next week and had no problems whatsoever, indeed new CM always said what lovely well behaved boys they were.

I think your friends best bet is to look for a new CM asap.

It's ridiculous to think the parent can prevent it when they're not present. No matter how much they discipline/deal with it at home, the child could still lash out. It's not like an older child where you could show your disapproval or give your own punishment at the end of the day.

If the behaviour is very severe and persistent, I could understand the cm eventually deciding to give notice. But I would expect this to be after several discussions with the parent and trying out lots of different strategies to deal with it first.

"obviously when child is at cm they cant do anything but if they observe this behaviour at home or in the presence of family etc then they must make sure their dc understands that it is wrong and wont be tolerated"

Fine, but maybe they are already. Or perhaps they have never witnessed the behaviour. Then what?

If one of your children became a biter, what would you actually do? My 14/nearly 15 month old understands the word no, as did my son at around the same age, but they are not necessarily compliant all the time - how many times have I told her not to chew the fireplace stones!!! So I say, "NO!" and move her away and all of that but I have to accept it will probably be several weeks or months before she will actually leave them alone on her own accord and I'd hazard a guess it will be more to do with the fact that developmentally she's moved on and no longer interested in them and that possibly it had nothing to do with me saying no (or may have done, but enough time passes in between that it can become hard to know what actually fixed things)

Children of that age can start to be diciplined for sure - or guided into correct behaviour - but it can take a bit of time and patience before they actually display those corrected, preferable behaviours. That's why I said it would be a different thing if it was still going on at 2 or 2 and a half - in fact, a load of development goes on between 18 months and 2 years from what I remember with the boy, hell, its the difference between a tiny tot and a proper little person. They still will not always do as told though - but at 2 years old its not necessarily down to parenting either.

I do accept that other parents would find it unacceptable, absolutely (I've had biting and hitting issues in that my son was a "victim" but neither of my kids have ever done it) so I'm all for a non-violent environment. I just feel that realistically at 16 months the CM will just have to supervise more closely, have a playpen for the child to be separated if necessary which doubles up as a time out type punishment if she has to go and prepare lunch...I dont know, but I feel she should be doing more than passing the buck and calling time.

He went through a phase a couple of months ago where he bit his parents, they told him no firmly and put him down when he did, he has now stopped doing that. He has never done anything to other children with his parents around.

Seriously though how hard would it be for the CM to either take the 16 month old with her if she has to go and do something (extra cuddle might do him good) OR pop him in a travel cot in the corner if she has to go and prepare lunch, answer the phone, etc etc...that's what my friend does with her child who is the victim of her brother who is hitting and biting.

If she has to load them in the car, she loads the biter first so he's strapped up and then deals with the others. Its not that hard to prevent it most the time. I reckon she's got a new placement lined up or can't be arsed...it IS her job whichever way you look at it, to safeguard children in her care, even the ones who are behaving badly - safe him from himself, so to speak...

I don't think she is barking on the basis of one sentence. She may have spoken to the parent before about it and feels the parents are not deterring it. Yes children do bite, but with firm boundaries they learn not to. If the parents do nothing or laugh when it happens he will do it more and won't learn that it isn't acceptable. From the post I suspect this is more likely. The cm can discipline, I have been one and used time out from as soon as they had enough understanding to look sheepish after. Not just on my mindees but with my own who where between 15 and 18 months - none were biters, hitters, kickers etc because they had boundaries which were consistent. The CM is saying that she can set boundaries in practice but it will be wasted effort if the parents don't follow the same discipline at home.

Why is she letting him bite anyone? My son has hit, bit, strangled, pushed, jumped on other children at times. Some children especially boys are exuberant and he may have sensory needs and my son at 16 months, developmentally had no conception about right or wrong and still even at 5 needs reminding about lots of agressive type behaviour. The CM needs to get real about coping with (some) boys. I chose my childminder because she is brilliant at calm effective discipline and has a trampoline in her garden to allow boys to let off steam.

But I think it's the cm's job to deal with this, that's whatbshe gets paid for!

I think I agree about all of the above comments re: childminder managing behaviour, and would be horrified and feel bad if parenting classes were suggested - but when my son was small (18 mths -2 years ish) he was bitten and kicked by the other mindee, and whilst I understood all the arguments about how kids behave and etc, I was still upset about the teeth marks and bruises when I saw them in the bath.
I think it's a tough call, as some parents might start removing their children from care if this was happening - but I would've thought that if childminder and parents have a good relationship, the ideal scenario would be to try and work through the behaviour together to sort it out? Parent is parenting but so is the "in loco parentis" adult.

My friends little girl bit my dd2 at soft play but it wasn't apparent who had been bitten until later because dd2 told me later (2.10mths) I watched the scenario unfold as her older dd1 (4yrs) told her that her dd2 (2yrs) had bitten someone. She asked once 'who?' then dd1 didn't reply so nothing more was said and both children went back to play.
If I had been the parent in this I would have not allowed dd1 (4) away to play until the victim had been pointed out. I would have apologised to the parent and dd2 (2.10) would not go and play for 3 minutes. This is why it isn't the behaviour but how it is handled.
I told my friend a few days later that it was dd2 she had bitten but no apology. Obviously by then it was too late for any discipline. Parents need to be vigilent.

16 months is still a baby. In response to being told to go on a course by the CM, I would in turn suggest the CM goes on a course because she clearly knows nothing about children. I think she is acting way beyond her remit to suggest the parents go on a parenting course. That is so rude and I would report to ofsted as I consider this to be very unprofessional.

Personally I would have removed my child from the setting at once, as I would expect a CM to be able to discuss issues in a professional manner. She should be able to discuss a strategy for dealing with the problem with the parents, so everyone's approach is consistent. I think that in the absence of the parents the CM should use mutually agreed strategies for combating this. The parents can't act when they are not there.

If it is becoming a concern for other parents, then the CM should end the arrangement but be honest and not blame the parents for the fact that she can't cope with behaviour which is quite common in some children.

It is the CMs job to discipline but not in place of parents. It has to be a joint approach or the child becomes confused and more agressive.

So the parents would be happy for cm to put dc in playpen in an effort to stop biting.REally?[hmm]. I completely disagree that dc of that age dont know that biting/hitting is wrong.My 3 certainly did. To many parents nowadays are just not willing to acknowledge that their kids are not little angels and to take on the parental responsibility of disciplining them(prefer to pass the buck and blame others).Am sure I will get flaming for this but imo.

If it's her first and she doesn't know HOW to guide her baby through the socialisation process, then parenting classes might be very useful in equipping both parents with tools (eg, some folks might say that the best way to deal with a biter is to bite them back, someone else might say NAUGHTY STEP, person #3 might suggest moving the biter away then giving attention to the one who has received the bite, which would an inexperienced first time parent chose to do??)

It all depends on the tone of the convo and none were privy to it

Say the parent, having been told of the biting incident/s heard 'you terrible parents what a wicked child you have' and the CM felt she had delivered 'Gosh young Johnny has developed biting as a really effective way of getting the toys from the other children, I think that you might find parenting classes really helpful in finding methods to develop his negotiating skills' - see how the two things can be poles apart?

I agree that the CM should have behaviour management strategies ready, and should be working with the parents to implement them appropriately

Well, I sort of agree with you in essence Pink4Ever, in that I dont think its ever too early to start saying "No!" or "That's not nice" in a firm voice and pop the child down and walk away or remove them from what they were doing, or whatever, depending on the behaviour. But if that doesn't solve it instantly (and trust me, it does not always) then THEN what? You are a bit limited in what you can do with a 16 month old that deters bad behaviour that isn't smacking.

And you haven't answered my question about what you would do. If its "just say no" well fine, but surely if that was all that was needed, the CM wouldn't have this problem? What WOULD you do, if telling the child off, removing them etc DIDN'T WORK? I'm not suggesting parents should do nothing or not dicipline but you seem to be quick to judge these parents but you are not actually coming up with any constructive ideas about what it is you think they have or haven't done or should do.

I agree with you 100% about too many people not acknowledging their child is displaying bad behaviours that should be corrected. There is too much "boys will be boys", "oh, they are as bad as each other", etc etc but if I see a parent practicing age-appropriate discipline/corrective guidance and the child is still doing it, I wouldn't necessarily blame the parents. Sure if something isn't working and time is going on and on, a different approach is required, but this sounds like a newly emerged problem.

You sound like me in that we have both been lucky not to have any truly problem behaviours from our children yet. But its really easy to armchair critic and say "parents these days" etc etc but you have come up with little by way of strategy that I wonder if you would actually know what to do at all.

I think emkana's point that he's never done it in front of his parents (and/or used to bite them and they have prevented it) is key.

I can teach my young toddler (with lots of backsliding) that hitting/screaming etc is wrong, but I can't teach him that you mustn't pull the cat's tail if I don't have a cat (not quickly and effectively anyway), I can't teach him to play nicely with playmates if he's an only child and he doesn't have playmates at home. I can talk sternly to him when he gets home if I'm told he's been naughty but frankly punishment several hours after the fact is not going to have any effect on a child that age. Obviously in the longer term time and competent parenting will improve his behaviour, but in the short term the child's behaviour with his peers is the childminder's problem, for better or worse.

I am a CM and I have cared for a few children who have gone through biting stages. I have just kept a very close eye on them and worked with their parents. I never blamed their parents. However, when I first started minding, I cared for a child with very difficult behaviour. I gave notice, but I still didn't blame his parents, I just explained that I wasn't able to cope. I would be able now. Is your minder very new?

Some posters seem to think it is incredibly easy to teach a child to stop biting- and they are the ones who say 'My child never did it'. My friend's DS had an issue with biting/lashing out at other children when he was about this age, and I watched my friend do absolutely everything right- firm no, removing, giving time out, made to say sorry. She was consistent and made it very clear that he shouldn't do it.

That didn't stop my DD from getting hit and bitten a few times, because he was just a baby and didn't immediately choose the right behaviour! I didn't much enjoy seeing DD get bitten, but I supported my friend through it all and never once blamed her.

It is normal behaviour for some children, and will take a while to pass- in the meantime the CM should be taking all the precautions suggested above and only giving notice as an absolute last resort- if the parents are not taking it seriously. We can't tell from the OP if this is the case.

pink4ever - you are lucky that none of your children bit. Some children bite at this age, and for a variety of reasons - teething pain, tiredness, frustration, or simply as a brutal way of getting their own way. Part of the approach to tackling this is to sit down and find out what the triggers are and to prevent the situation arising. And of course, setting boundaries. Saying No is of course very important, and removing the child from the situation, giving the bitten child a lot of attention etc. A childminder should be able to manage this, and to understand that children who are parented perfectly well may still try it.

DS1 did not hit, push or bite other children, DS2 did, despite the fact that my parenting was the same for both (Firm)

And actually, some babies who show negative behaviours do it more if they get a very strong reaction to it. So saying No loudly is not the whole answer and may even be counterproductive as the child is getting attention. It is too simplistic to equate negative behaviours in babies and toddlers to poor parenting.

We were the parents of the child who regularly came home with bite marks- and tbh I would have been horrified if the CM had been unable to cope and tried to put the blame on the other parents. I expect a CM to be experienced and professional.

The other mum was devastated, I kept muttering "there but for the grace of God..." There was absolutely nothing wrong with her parenting.

I'm with BoysAreLikeDogs and, until I hear an account from the parent herself and the childminder, not a second hand "she said (well that's what I was told)" version from someone who wasn't present during the conversation, I won't agree that this childminder is barking.

cory - You are always so well-balanced

My DS1 used to get bitten and I'm afraid that I was (underneath) not quite so un-judgmental. Boy did my smuggery come and (literally) bite me on the bum when DS2 turned up!

It was upsetting and I won't deny it, Jamie. But the other mum was so upset- and I had had one less than perfect child in the past so I knew what she felt like.

My son was a biter for a short while at nursery, I was a nursery nurse there at the time and it was mortifying!
Your friend and the CM need to agree on a strategy to deal with this - remove the child from the situation with a firm 'NO' and give the bitee lots of cuddles and attention. Children this age are beginning to understand right and wrong and he will soon come to realise that if he bites/hits etc he won't get the attention he wants. Many children go through a phase of biting, it's awful for the parents (whether biting or bitten) but it does stop.
As for the deep routed parenting problems, has she clarified what problems? Is she an experienced CM? A quick word with OFSTED about where the line is drawn between childcare and sticking your nose in should give your friend the ammunition needed to deal with accusations like this (and she won't need to identify the CM unless she wants to), then if the CM brings up the so called problem again she can start with "well according to OFSTED...."
Can't agree this person is barking, just possibly inexperienced and too quick to put blame onto the parents..

I'm just not sure what my friend is supposed to do - change childcare every time her ds shows undesirable behaviour?