to think that so many women have traumatic damage during childbirth, and why can you not have a CS on demand?

[GetOrfMoiLand]

No I know this is probably a contentious point, and financially there would be a hell of a burden, but it seems that a woman's body is not brilliantly well designed for childbirth, and so many women have had terrible vaginal damage caused by birth, you only have to look at the threads on here.

I was only thinking this because SIL went to A&E on christmas day due to severe rectal damage, she was in utter agony and couldn't go to the loo. And one of her friends who gae birth at the same time had terriblt third degree tears also.

Disclaimer - I know bugger all about anything, but childbirth can cause such trauma, there is a perfectly good alternative which would reduce these incidents of damage (yes, I do know that a CS is major abdominal surgery, I have had abdominal surgery myself and although painful, I wouldn't say it was as painful as my poor SIL's injuries, not by a long shot)

one of my best friends from childhood had counselling for it, that's really why i started to read around it. she's gone on to have another little one to make her family complete, but she avoided it for years (despite wanting a brother or sister for her DD) because of that. i'm sure these services (support charities) still exist, my friend had her couselling about 6 or 7 years ago now and i'll be damned if i can remember the name of the one she went to. she went to group sessions and all sorts, it took 2 years to come to terms with what had happened, but she did go on to have another eventually.

sorry i can't remember the name of the charity, maybe someone on here knows what i'm talking about. i'm assuming there isn't loads of charities specialising in this sort of thing. but at least one exists in a well establishedform.

I am not afraid of the pain - it was the fear and confusion and sheer awful panic and indignity of the whole thing...I can't really explain, but it is so deeply routed in me that when I was in the second car crash when I broke my pelvis and they offered me morphine - I was like "why? The childbirth was sooo much worse..."
Giving birth to my son was the best thing that happened to me, because I ended up with my son. Also the worst in terms of life experience.

My son is now 10 and I have just come round to the idea of TTC - still unsure because of childbirth. Can't guarantee I could have a baby if I can't have a C section. I KNOW I sound mad - but that's how I feel!

"it was the fear and confusion and sheer awful panic and indignity of the whole thing"

i understand this part of your post entirely. for me, it was also, mostly, the feeling of being trapped, and nothing could get me any relief save the safe delivery of DC or my own death (slightly dramatic but have a few long term health issues which loomed large before and during deliverY). that feeling of having nowhere to turn, no relief, despite all the so-called medical advances.

but then it wasn't anywhere near as traumatic as some friends and relatives, in reality, it's just the way that i perceived things to be (much worse than they were).

that guardian article wa brilliant

i really should read that paper more

But - my birth (other than the early bit and son was fine - spent two weeks in neo natal unit) FINE according to text book. Still BY FAR the worst thing that EVER happened. I don't think I CAN actually do it again - I have no excuse, and STILL feel this way.

I believe there should be choice but education needs to be there to.

(Below is C&P from an old thread)

Yes, a CS should be offered if a woman is absolutely terrified but many women end up with a traumatic birth after lying on their back for hours with little medical support, feeling terrified. I think a lot of the trauma could be prevented or at least lessened.

This is not helpful, for me. Not being rude but for me, not helpful.
3 : The hard bit was the easy bit, for example. Not having this new baby. I am clearly weird in some way - I found points one and two frightening.
I DID all that gravity stuff. Can now hardly contemplate sleep as a result of thinking about it.

Why not helpful? I'm sorry if it upsets you but why is it unhelpful. There are too many women appraoching birth terrified-I was one.

That doesn't mean it isn't frightening or that everyone will have a nice, relaxing VB. Lots of women will need CSs regardless of what they do to prepare or how they move around in labour. That doesn't mean that more education isn't needed.

I'm amazed you found part 3 easy though! I found being home alone with a 2day old newborn (DH had to go into work for a couple of hours) absolutely terrifying. I didn't have a bloody clue what I should do with him.

LOL - no I didn't either - I was on my own as my partner was back at uni- thinking about it - if I thought that bit was easy - the child birth bit nust have been dreadful! Thought about it all again - and contraception seems to be my friend! I am lucky to have one child - maybe another is not for me!

DorisKent - I think that you're generally correct, but Catnao is, i suspect, in a different category.
I strongly suspect that for some women, since time immemorial, childbirth has been an absolutely overwhelming psychological experience. And a devastating one. I think C. may be one of them. (Sorry if I'm way off, C.)

I'm only an Eng Lit student - and this, basically, is just an opinion I've formed through reading ... . Just of characters at the edges of stories, iyswim.

nust? Anyway bed time - thanks for help though - it has given me food for thought.

Animula - I don't know about Eng Lit in relation to this issue - my degree in that was a while ago but I absolutely agree that childbirth, for me, was overwhelming. Totally.

Catnao - I had a traumatic time too and it has taken a long long time for me to bond with my son. I think I am lucky in some ways that because I couldn't avoid the triggers that set off flashbacks I have recieved treament earlier than most. It sounds like you have some PTSD and if you explain everything to GP i.e. nightmares and avoidence he/she could send you for some therapy. This may help you. Plus I am having a c-section next time and I will take it as far as I can if they say no. No way am I risking and incompetent Dr nearly killing me again.

I genuinely don't "get" the thing that c-section is the easy option. I had a c-section with ds1 (transverse, risk of cord prolapse), the whole experience was horrendous. Noone prepared me for what to expect after a c-section. The antenatal class barely touched on it. The consultant said I would be walking around after a few hours whereas in reality after 2 days when I walked around the ward, my painkillers wore off before I returned to my bed. It took me an hour to get back into my bed, such was the pain). my HV expected me to walk 2 miles to the baby clinic 2 weeks after my section rather than her make home visits (we live in a rural area and driving was not an option).

3 years later I was having ds2. The thought of having another c-section was keeping me up at night (to say the least), the idea of having a vbac with associated risks (and I was in a high risk group for uterine rupture) was not much better. In the end I had another c-section and was very glad I did when the surgeon commented that it was taking a long time to complete the operation due to the fact that my uterus was so thin at the point of the old scar.

Thanks BlueCollie - going to discuss with GP tomorrow - but I am NOT having a baby if I have to go through that again! Glad I'm not the only one! Cxx

Totally, totally agree that for some women childbirth is the most horrific thing they'll ever go through.

However, I don't believe that all women who end up with a CS would fall into this category.

Doris, I thought your C&P was pretty good. I'm absolutely not a control freak but points 1&2 would have helped me, I think.

Catnao, it definitely sounds like you've not come to terms with your birth experience and IMHO you should get some help in dealing with it. I'm not saying that to change your mind about your preference for a CS but just so that you can face the prospect of becoming a parent again. I had a lot of emotional baggage following my emcs and when I saw the specialist mw a few months ago re my plans for a vbac, she was very clear that my first birth experience constituted a trauma and that counselling was absolutely recommended for someone in my position. No-one had ever brought this up with me before. The mw was absolutely correct in saying that you go through a traumatic birth - people around you don't have any idea how you feel about it (and they can't unless they've been through it). You have a newborn to care for so you concentrate on dealing with the practicalities. Everyone around you assumes you've 'got over it' - but you haven't. It gets pushed to the back of your mind. It was one of the most wonderful things anyone could have said to me as it validated my feelings. Much of the anxiety I had about actually having my DS was alleviated straight away.

unseen I totally agree with the lack of antenatal info about post section. As I had an emcs, I wasn't planning on having surgery and not one mw or dr came and talked to me about the operation or what I could expect re recovery. I was so out of it for the first few days I didn't have the wherewithall to ask anyone what would happen and I don't think it occurred to my DH to make sure I knew what was going on bless him. Yet women who plan a section at my local hospital are given loads of literature on it....go figure. I'm you were expected to walk to the baby clinic so quickly - my HV came to see us at home for 6 weeks post section and even then she offered to come to mine week 7 (by then I was desperate to get out the house and finally felt like I might manage it!)

I agree with you completely , I have known a lot of ladies who have given birth and have had horrific injuries , I do think because people think we are design ed to give birth we should just put up with whatever pain comes our way , I remember the agony of trying to wee after tear and grazes it had me on tears everytime I went to the loo . My ds also had the cord around his neck and came very close to dying I think being booked in for a cs would have eliminated that risk but I am not a doctor therefore can't be 100 per cent sure . Getorf I'm so sorry for your sister the poor woman no one should ever have to go through that I'm clenching at the thought of it .

DorisKent - your C&P is pretty much a very eloquent version of what I believe (although as a first time pregnant person, I didn't have the gravity details! )

It frustrates me endlessly that we have to see one or the other as better. There are risks for both - this is clearly true or people would not have been dying in childbirth, destroying their bodies or their babies for millions of years. We have the benefit of fantastic medical care and should be able to assess all the risks, of natural and intervention and to make a decision accordingly. If my mother had had a c-section, I probably would not have suffered from severe damage to one of my arms that has affected me my whole life.

In South Africa, private medical care is excellent. My obgyn there told me that in the perfect world, he prefers his patients to have a natural birth. However, that the moment there seems to be some risk of natural birth not working as it should for mother and/or baby, he recommends a c-section. That seems like a balanced approach to me.

Sorry - I haven't read all the thread - I will go back and do so.

OP - YADNBU and for the record I did ask for an NHS C-section and was given it without a medical reason and without question.

Of my closest dozen or so friends who have given birth 2 of them nearly died in the process due to mismanagement and most of the others ended up with emergency c-sections and terrible birth trauma/damage. I just told my consultant this and said I wanted a c-section. Which I had and it was really really easy. Easy recovery, baby in perfect health. I am left perplexed why anyone would go for vaginal birth. I'm pregnant again and am already signed up for my next c-section. I know I've been lucky - but this has been my experience. I just don't understand why women put themselves through vaginal delivery.

DorisKent - yes, I agree. (I did say I thought Catnao's was a particular case. I was just responding to your asking why your earlier post wasn't helpful to Catnao.)

I pretty much agree with your C and P. While there is a lot of very useful, helpful info on this thead, I'm a weeny bit alarmed about how -ve it is about VB. I think it is enormoulsy important for women to share real experience, and thus to provide info, giving real choice ... and I know VB has some very nasty complications for some women.

But i am a little concerned that this thread is just a bit too pro-CS. I find that worrying, given that women will be reading this, perhaps as a route in to researching their own birth "choice".

I've had emergency CS and VBAC with forceps. In both cases my babies would have suffered brain damage or not survived without intervention.

Lovely for you if you had an empowering natural birth. You don't know how lucky you are - yes it's a matter of luck.

I've been through the wars, and feel lucky and privileged that me and dd and ds made it. I'm very grateful to the NHS who intervened when they did (first birth started off as a home-birth).

Idealised depictions of birth can be just as damaging as horror stories: I was pretty depressed after my CS. Over it now, cos bringing up the kids is really the hard part.

Thinking about it, I wonder if this thread points to the fact that there is still little cultural acknowledgement about the enormous costs exacted by childbirth (and I''d add childcaring to that, too), still, even in the developed West, to be paid by women. Not all women, but a significant number of us.

The cost can be very high indeed. And there is very little in the way of recompense, symbolic or otherwise, for those costs.

There is also an enormous silence, publicly, about it. I can see why. we don't want to scare other women, we don't want to moan. we don't want to talk about what our bodies are like because it's too intimate, and is loaded, particularly because our culture still values women for their correlation to a pubescent ideal.

i do think we need to start work on a discourse of the maternal, though.

I had a vaginal birth and it was awful. I couldn't walk properly for around 12 weeks afterwards and even now, when I get my AF, the pain down there is excruciating and DD is now 20 months old !

From friends I know who had CSs, I have suffered a lot more than I would have done having a CS.

Labour started on the Friday at Noon and DD was delivered by Ventouse in the early hours of Monday morning. She had to be resuscitated and the trauma of the birth damaged her eye, for which she's just had corrective surgery.

I will ensure (if I can ever afford to have a second) that my Consultant is aware of all this and I will request a CS!