Universities mis-selling courses

[LornMowa]

Having read a post in Money Matters and knowledge of 2 other people whose lives have taken a turn for the worse since becoming a student, AIBU to think that Universities should be much more discerning about who is allowed to take courses.

I think that by enticing people whose earning prospects are unlikely to be enhanced by a degree to become students, some universities are as reprehensible as other leaches such as loan sharks.

To the poster on MM, I do hope that you can improve your prospects and resolve your current problems.

And another thing, Sakura ...

... unless your DCs are very bright, they might find it harder to get onto certain highly competitive apprenticeship schemes than to get into university.

It's not about snobbery; I'll eat my hat if rich kids are advised to do apprenticeships, and kids from poor backgrounds are advised to go to uni

It creates a two-tier system. Apprenticeships for the not-so-rich who can't afford uni, and uni for the perhaps-not-so-bright who can afford uni

But I take your point that good quality apprenticeships can offer the opportunities to broaden horizons that university can.

I object strongly to that, Sakura. My father wanted to become an architect back in the dim and distant - he wasn't able to because his father couldn't afford for him to be apprenticed to an architect. So he had to go to Uni instead, to become a lecturer in foreign languages.

Architects get paid a sight more than lecturers. Can't answer for which is seen in a better light from a snobbish point of view but I can guarantee they're not "down there" with the plumbers (who can also earn a lot more than lecturers, iirc)

Thanks TFS.

well perhaps because I'm not from a background where "apprenticeship" means "architect" I am coming at this from a different angle
Where I'm from, apprenticeship means: carpenter, training at the local factory, plumber

I didn't know you good get good quality apprenticeships such as architecture and engineering TBH

There is a two tier system in the sense that some people believe (wrongly) that a university education is somehow better than an apprenticeship.

One point I was trying to make though was that the distinction between apprenticeships and university is becoming more blurred - because apprenticeships sometimes involve youngsters being sponsored by their employers to attend university part-time and study for higher education qualifications.

I see where sakura's coming from. If I think of an apprenticeship, I automatically think of electrician, plumber, joiner etc.

I though architects had to have a degree.

You learn something new every day. :)

And nothing wrong with being a plumber, electrician, joiner (as those jobs often earn more than graduate jobs)
But there is something very wrong with "advising" kids from a certain socio-economc background that those jobs are what they should aim for, regardless of innate talent or ability, because of money IYSWIM, and at the same time tell wealthy kids they should aim for uni
I'm just arguing for labour to get back in, I suppose!

I think they do now but (like lawyers still do), they had to serve an apprenticeship in a firm. And when Dad wanted to do it, the apprentice had to pay the architect, not the other way around - which is why his Dad couldn't afford it.

I don't know if the system is still the same for architects now - it may not be - but the point I was trying to make is that it isn't as clear cut as Sakura thought it was in that Poor => apprenticeship, Rich => Uni.

Apprenticeships have moved on. They are still available in the skilled trades like plumbing and carpentry, but there are opportunities to move up the qualification ladder to university level for those with the ability and inclination.

Obviously not all employers offer this option.

And nothing wrong with being a plumber, electrician, joiner I'd hope that would go without saying :)

From what you've written TSH, If I had my time again, I'D have gone for an apprenticeshoip in architecture or engineering...
(although I absolutely loved my degree. LOved it)

I'm currently studying for a masters in the field I already have experience in, at a university accredited and approved by the professional body in my industry. The course is designed for people already working but looking to get a professional qualification precisely to help people get senior management roles.

I am not joking when I say there are people on my course who can't speak English, nevermind write it. There are people who have never even had a Saturday job - which is difficult when you have to draw on your work experience in classes and group work and there are people who are on their second or third masters. Seriously there are people on my course that I wouldn't employ to answer the telephone, nevermind head an HR function.

I very nearly decided the course wasn't for me as the classes and class mates were ruining the experience for me. But I've spent the best part of £20,000 when fees and childcare are added up and the lecturers are good so I've stuck with it. I know it pisses off the uni staff that they'll just let anyone in regardless of academic ability or future employment potential just because they'll stump up £10,000 in fees.

Of course backward, I was reacting to the accusation that I was being snobby.
I just mean that I'll eat my hat the day I see the upper middle classes pushing their kids into plumbing apprentices , to make way for the brainy kids who are less well off to go into more academic fields

Not that you can't be brainy and a plumber...! Gah

My only point is that I think opportunities should be open to all kids from all backgrounds

That's a shame Katie . I think that system has to go. Or people should be told that the unis are out to make money sometimes

Sakura - who is advising kids from poor backgrounds to go for apprenticeships regardless of ability? As a Labour supporter, it's certainly not me!

Architecture does require a degree but also several years of on-the-job training which I guess is the same as an apprenticeship.

There are apprenticeships for architectural technicians, a slightly different job - more about the technical than the design side.

And I agree!

NO, I get that now TFS. I've learned a lot about apprenticeships today

OK, have caught up with all cross-posts.

Basically I think we all agree with each other.

Can I go to bed now?

I think the trouble is funding to universities has been cut so to be able to do all the good things they do (research, educating the able) they have to take students who can pay.

The whole system is less about ability and potential and more about getting cash from anywhere other than the government.

On the continent (I'm thinking particularly of Spain) they also try to get funding from other sources but take it from business and there's a lot of emphasis on talent management. ie you join a company from school, prove yourself able (ever met someone with a string of qualifications and no common sense/social skills?) and then they'll put you through university if you've got potential.

What's really ironic is that when I finish my course, after one year I will fingers crossed have my masters and should be able to get a good job with senior manager prospects because I will have the masters. There are people working and studying part time who will get a post graduate diploma after two years who are already HR professionals but who will probably be passed over for promotion in favour of those with a masters. This isn't fair. Particularly when I in my previous life as a manager would have taken on almost every part time student I've met and almost none of the full time ones who'll have the "better"' qualification.

I really feel my degree is worth less because they're just giving them away to anybody that'll pay fees. And yes I do feel conned and that it's desperately unfair.

Sorry I feel better for my rant. Can't vent in RL because I've taken money from my family to do this and I feel very guilty that I've been missold something that might not deliver the rewards I hope it will.

Sakura - sorry if you thought I was accusing you of being snobby, I wasn't at all! It's a common perception of "levels" of jobs, and I totally agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a plumber etc.

yes, I think we were all on the same page to begin with thumbwitch

"I think they do now but (like lawyers still do), they had to serve an apprenticeship in a firm."

Yes they do - my dad was an architect and his firm took on part II students. However, the boss only liked taking on male students (he was v.sexist) and apprentices in architecture work for free - we had a kid who was from a v.wealthy background who came in and would park his car in the £15 per day park across the road.