Feminism - happy to change my mind

[BorisTheAlligator]

I'm a regular poster - I have namechanged as I could very easily get flamed for this. However, I am asking a genuine question and will change my mind if people can logically (not emotively) explain why.

Recently - in conversation and on the internet - I have noticed that very often, a man being slightly unfair to a woman is called a misogynist (even if the event in which he was perceived to be unfair in no way reflects his attitude to women in general). Mainly, if the roles were reversed, I doubt the woman would be called misandric - maybe a bit mean, but not misandric.

Then, anyone who agrees with the man is called sexist/antifeminist/a misogynist. The people who accuse other women (or men, as the case may be) of this, often come out with such things as 'he obviously knows nothing about women'. I mean, surely we're not all the same as each other and there is no special way of 'talking to a woman'? Tbh, I find that more offensive than most of the unfair things that were the issue in the first place.

I genuinely did think that feminism was about equal choices and rights for women - not 'men must always be nice to me because I am a woman'. Just to clarify, I am a woman and very much believe in feminism as I perceive it!

I'm not really asking AIBU, because I would expect quite a few YABUs. I'm just asking, really.

Actually, I want to change that 'slightly unfair' to just 'unfair'. My question still applies to someone being an absolute nasty-pants.

I don't really know what you are asking.

All feminists don't think the same thing, and what you have written is very vague. I can't imagine someone who is trying to present a coherent feminist argument saying "he obviously knows nothing about women". You are right that most people wouldn't define feminism as being characterised by the idea that men have to be nice to women, just because they are women.

Men and women in a contentious situation aren't always interchangeable as we do have a patriarchal society.

If you feel people are being unreasonable, why not call them on it at the time?

Thanks for the reply, falling.

I rather not call people on things when I don't know very well, but have to work with them!

I was vague on purpose, as this applies to a broad enough range. One is housework. I knwo women who won't make their husbands a cup of tea when ill, but expect it from them. One other being sex - I don't think a man wanting sex when a woman doesn't makes him sexist, even if he is persistent. He may be behaving in a way that is stupid, childish and selfish, but I don't think it necessarily reflects misogyny.

Also, I know many who think 'cunt' is misogynistic, but I've never met anyone opposed to the word 'prick' because they thought it misandric...

SOrry was laughing at SGM for proving Op's point

Stewie - I agree completely on all the sex stuff, and not treating men like children.

However, still a bit confused on the 'misogynistic ideals' and I do think misandry exists (mainly in the form of man-haters).

Please don't flame me, I'm very nice.

I think your post is a bit vague so it's hard to know exactly what to say.

I think there's a big difference between a man (or woman in a different situation) discounting the experience of the woman (man), and them offering their own experience. That's what comes to mind when I read your post.

Sort of like a white person telling a black person 'I've never encountered racism in this workplace' as a response the the black person's comment - if its a simple observation that's not so bad, but it can often be used to shut down the conversation as a denial that there is racism in that workplace. I think that some feminists can be exceptionally sensitive to this because it happens very frequently.

Is that along the lines of what you meant?

SugarMouse - completely agree on the school play, and I think you may have phrased parts of my point much better than I did.

Very informative post.

No, I get you OP. Feminism isn't really simply about men creeping around women and stepping on eggshells so as not to be a mysogynist pig. Nothing like it.

Its easy to get that idea on Mumsnet. Trouble is, there are a lot of threads about arguments and general unrest which is derived from situations surrounding childcare and housework being apportioned within a family environment. This can sometimes mean that the man has bad old fashioned ideas about a woman's place within the home. Sometimes it means he is just lazy and it is nothing to do with his views on women - he might not see it as his wife's job at all, just simply as unimportant. Just because a man doesn't scrub out a bath every 2nd day doesn't mean he thinks the woman should - he probably thinks it doesn't need to at all. Ever been to a bachelor pad? Some of them are skanky.

On mumsnet a lot of people will say "he's treating you like a maid, leave him" when really the correct advice is "how can you manage your relationship and restore the balance so you are not feeling this way by either getting him on board or adjusting your priorities"

Common sense generally prevails.

In your OP you say that men are called misogynists "even if the event in which he was perceived to be unfair in no way reflects his attitude to women in general", but then the two examples you give are housework and wanting sex when the woman doesn't. Do you really think that these two topics, of all those over which men and women interact, are not actually among the most laded in terms of perceived roles of men and women?

Tatty, no, I think feminism is about equal rights and choices - emphasis on equal, not superior.

However, I have encountered many women who seem to think it is about eggshells and that is what I'm posting about.

I understand where you are coming from. I don't agree with telling women that any thought they have which does not comply with feminist thinking is "misogynist".

If you say that women who are raped are asking for it or that women with many sexual partners are sluts while similar men are studs, fair enough. However, I have heard women being told they are "misogynist" for suggesting that staying home with kids is An Okay Thing To Do. Or for suggesting that it is uncomfortable to talk about men in a way that implies that they would rape if they could because all rapists are men. I have seen some threads where there is a lot of talk of "strawman arguments" when it seems that the "antifeminist" poster simply hasn't given what they've said as much thought as the feminist responder.

Not really, Madonna.

I am more concerned about payscales and career options.

I agree that they are issues. Just not necessarily feminist ones.

If someone can explain why they are, I will happily change my mind.

You don't think housework is a feminist issue? Gosh.

Men wanting sex when a woman doesn't is not a feminist issue.

Men asking for sex when a woman doesn't want to have sex is not a feminist issue.

Men behaving abusively towards a woman when she says she doesn't want sex or forcing the issue in any way is a feminist issue.

Similarly, housework is only a feminist issue if there is a disparity in role expectations (particularly where the expectation falls to the woman). In our house (like many others), we are both as slovenly as eachother. We both do the same amount. No maids here, no siree. Why is it necessarily a feminist issue? I don't understand this either.

Have you ever met one of these 'man-haters'? I haven't. Ever.

And 'even if he is persistent'? What exacttly do you mean?

I used to think men and women should be entirely equal but now I'm 50, I have reached the conclusion that women just can't have it all unless there is great wealth involved and even then the children sometimes suffer. At risk of flaming and as the mother to one teenager and one nearly teenager there comes a point when the children actually need more quality time from a parent, mother or father, rather than less and a time when an au-pair or a nanny's input is simply not enough however good they are. To provide that sort of parental and holistic support it simply becomes impossible for both parents to hold down high powered, full time jobs, unless to some extent it is at the expense of the children.

Madonna, I do think that housework can be. However, the example I gave is making tea for an ill husband.

I make tea for DH when he is ill. He makes it for me. I'm pretty sure it's not a feminist issue!

My point is that some would perceive housework to be a feminist thing regardless of circumstance. As in, they think their DH is sexist when he wants something, yet he will happily do the same.

9while5 - agree completely on the sex thing.

And the housework!!!

Something can be an issue on a cultural/societal issue without it applying on an individual basis though.

Very often, individuals read personal digs into comments that are actually a reflection on the wider issues. It's not a feminist issue if a couple make tea for one another. It's not a feminist issue that some individual couples may decide that the best use of their personal resources is that it is the norm for the woman to make tea 99.9% of the time. It becomes a feminist issue when the cultural expectation is that making tea is a female responsibility.

IYSWIM?

Ana, agreed!