Babies and booze

[AllyH9]

Shortly before Christmas I was standing outside Prezzo's restaurant in Farnham, Surrey when I noticed a couple sitting with a young child in the window table. As I watched, the woman offered her glass of wine to the child, who cannot have been more than two. The child took a large slug and beamed broadly. Over the next few minutes, the child clamoured for more wine and the woman allowed it to have two further large slugs. The man seemed unconcerned by this, but I was horrified.

I'm all for inculcating a responsible attitude to drinking, perhaps even allowing a teenager to drink in carefully-monitored moderation, but surely booze should not be given to babies? The amount the child drank must have had an effect on such a tiny body, and it seems clear that there is a link between childhood drinking and alcoholism in later life.

Since then, I have been berating myself: I should have been brave enough to go in and say something to the child's mother. My only hope now is that she might recognise herself and question the wisdom of her actions. What do other mums think?

As others have said, it could have been a J20, fruit juice, even blackcurrant cordial? But I think, to be honest, it's as little my business as it is yours to comment?

I would like to point out that I used to love having a sip of my DF's lager when I was little & I didn't turn out to be an alcoholic. In fact, I rarely drank at all & obviously don't now I'm pregnant.

Personally, however, I wouldn't give alcohol to my child.

AFAIK it is illegal to give a child under 5 alcohol www.talktofrank.com/drugs.aspx?id=166

OK I am prepared to be flamed now. My older daughters are in their 20's and neither drink more than once or twice a year - however both had tastes of alcohol as toddlers, Not sure it can therefore be a cause of alcoholism!
AFWIW my now toddler is very very fond of guiness froth and yes she will steal it if its unattended!

Because the child was not in immediate or unambiguously evident danger, I suppose. It's (clearly!) debatable whether early exposure to alcohol puts a child at risk, which was why I decided to debate it!

Thanks for the post from harverina. I was pretty sure that the liquid in question was white wine (the bottle on the table helped to give the clue) and would not have posted had I believed it could have been anything else. The child also had her own feeder cup on the table, presumably not containing anything suspect!

I do think that if people are not prepared to intervene children may be put at risk - Baby Peter and innumerable other children are now dead because people were unwilling to get involved. But it's difficult to know where to draw the line.

Peppapighastaken over my life might like to know that gripewater USED to contain alcohol, but no longer does. In the past, many medicines contained highly addictive substances; even things such as heroin could be bought over the counter.

They were probably French.

To those who asked, I only saw the parents who gave their child wine in Farnham; the others were in Tunbridge Wells, which probably considers itself just as exclusive as Farnham.

I live in a part of Farnham that might be regarded as quite posh. But it is, as I'm sure people will point out, prejudiced to imply that bad parenting is found only in certain areas. Lack of money does not equate to lack of common sense. The parent who failed to strap her tiny children in had a very nice car, and I've seen plenty of other mums driving 4WD monsters with one hand on the wheel and the other on a mobile phone.

Ally

I think you have been treated really unfairly and some people have been really rude to you - there are better ways to give an opinion that the way some people have been posting here...

If you are saying it was wine and you were there I don't understand why so many people here don't believe you - I personally think it is disgusting that they would let the toddler have glugs and glugs of wine, there is plenty Of time later to introduce them to wine/alcohol.

You have introduced a good thread, it is just a shame so many people have been so rude to you in their replies

On another note, someone I know recently bragged how funny they thought it was to get their seven year old nephew drunk - how stupid and how pathetic that they thought this was ok

I agree ally. Its not just up to professionals to protect children. Its everyones job to make sure children are kept safe. It makes me sad to think that people won't challenge parents, or take action, if they see a child at risk.
Re. Alcoholism, I'm sure that giving toddlers sips of drinks doesn't make them alcoholics later in life, I just think that there is plenty of time for kids to grow up and be adults. I won't be giving my baby sips of my wine or beer. When she is an older teenager I'll decide if she is responsible enough to have wine with her meal.

I'm really grateful for the nice posts, which have gone some way to restoring the reputation of Mumsnet!

I'm not convinced that it is wise even to pretend that a child is having alcohol. What's wrong with saying no, and telling them that children are only allowed to have soft drinks?

Ally - I agree that a very young child should not be given sips of alcohol at all, though I allow my 11yo DD to try a bit (she doesn't like the taste though)

Apart from anything else, even a small quantity of alcohol could damage a small liver.

With older kids (about age 9)would probably start to allow a little bit to build up a responsible attitude to alcohol.

Trying to impose an outright ban until 18 would probably backfire, though, as it would become "forbidden fruit".

Though in this case the wine could have been very watered down so the wine was practically nonexistent?

Yes Ally I am perfectly aware of that having taught on a number of occasions a history of medicine course. It was the leap from gripe water containing alcohol to alcoholism that I was questioning!

Anyway, if they truly were giving a small child alcohol then depending on the age of the child YANBU. As a snapshot though - who knows what it was, how much alcohol it contained and how much they drank of it.

The OP has been given a rough time because she made a spectacularly judgey first post based on having apparently seen something which she could not possibly verify and when called on it bitched about MNers not once but twice.

If she had posted "AIBU to think giving toddlers alcohol is madness" then she would have received a very different response and probably had a few more "inteligent and thoughtful" people willing to engage in reasoned debate.

As it is she comes across as judgey and sneery and, in particular foolish when she makes statements such as "it seems clear that there is a link between childhood drinking and alcoholism in later life" when no such general link exists.

I loathe people bringing "Baby P" into a debate like this.
There were TRUCKLOADS of people interfering in that child's life. Lack of people willing to say something was not the problem there. It's just that the evil his carers were perpetuating was beyond what most anybody could believe in. :(.

I am surprised OP that you didn't say something -- a comment to the restaurant staff would have been an appropriate route. It's got to be illegal for them to knowingly let that happen on their premises, anyway.

nancydrewrockinaroundxmastree

that's how I felt, I did not appriciate the later comments from the op, I did not post anything offensive at all, and I do wonder whether the couple in question had noticed the op and were trying to wind her up, which does not make their actions correct imo. I don't think I was being unintelligent or thoughtless, and nor were others who were slighted.

I think 99.9 % of Mumsnet are in the baby + alcohol = stupid idea, category. The discussion the op wanted to have is not made clear in her op, which have a number of generalisations in to which offense was taken when they were questioned

Ragged - you are absolutely spot on about Baby P.

I often have a glass of wine then get a bottle of fizzy water and pour some of that in my wine glass. dd loves fizzy water and wouldn't resist an opportunity to have some. I think something like this is the most likely explanation. I have even thought people could think I was giving my toddler wine but think they should mind their own business.

Totally different to seeing someone hitting their toddler round the head, I don't think you should mind your own business then.

Ragged - agree with regard to baby P. There is just no similarity.

Think the point that the op was trying to make by mentioning baby p was that people see children who are at risk all the time and often say nothing when saying something could make a difference in that childs life. Op correct me if I am wrong? Think she was making this point as some people were getting at her for getting involved in other peoples business.

Long before I had dd I knew a mum who allowed her son aged, 2-3 at that time, to drink WKD blue from her glass. Not the whole bottle, just sips. This little boy could identify WKD in the fridge.

Maybe the parents wanted to get the child to sleep? I'm not condoning their behaviour, just saying maybe they were desperate for sleep.
Or maybe it wasn't actually alcohol the family were drinking. You can get non alcoholic wine you know. Or even grape juice in wine glasses?

They tried to make me go to rehab, I said, "No, no, no"

I tell my DS that 'beer' is for grown ups. that is extended to mean anything fizzy, as I don't want him on fizzy drinks, as it is unnecessary IMO.

It's just 'no', isn't it? He's 3 FFS.

When he's (much) older, I'll obviously re-evaluate the plan.

When I first met OH, we went out for dinner with his parents and his two sons, who were both under 2.5 at the time. When OH was changing the youngests nappy, Mil filled up my older SS's sippy cup with beer. Right to the top. I was gobsmacked at the time and didn't say anything as we had literally been together a couple of weeks. Some people think its perfectly acceptable.

She wouldn't dare do it now though as she knows I would never allow it!