to make granny do things our way

[mamateur]

We took over DP's nephew's care, permanently, 3 months ago. He had been brought up by his granny since losing his parents as a baby. We took him because he was behaving really badly at school, swearing at teachers, messing around with older kids who were less than kind to him, getting increasingly out of hand at home, and eventually refused school for 3 months of Y7.

He's settled in with us very well. We've got over some major problems at school, which involved him being put in a 'nurture' stream because he was unmanageable.

So we've given him firm boundaries and his behaviour has turned around. He's happy and loves his school, his teachers say he's handing in good work and there are no behaviour problems. But really we're just like a boarding school, he talks to granny for hours on the phone every evening and plans to go back 'home' every holiday. Who can blame him (or her), she's his mum in every way that counts.

One of the problems we are dealing with at the moment (picking battles of course) is his table manners. He eats with his face in his food, fingers on the prongs of the fork, licking his knife and generally appears to have been raised by dingos. Granny has perfect table manners, in fact she went to finishing school.

If this was a typical granny situation I would let her spoil him, but she has already spoiled him and we are sorting out the mess she made. I want her to uphold our nice eating rules (he doesn't even know how to hold his cutlery, he's not being difficult) which are fruit no pudding if no effort. And no alcohol (last year she gave him 3 bucks fizz on Christmas day. He was 11).

YADNNNBU

As he is in your care, you need to do what is needed for this poor child to get him back on track and granny needs to respect that and follow your rules to the letter.

3 bucks fizz at 11? I would not approve!

Do you mean ask Granny to remind him of things when he is at her house? So both parties are on the same page as it were?

If so, sounds like a good idea to me. Especially to start with I think it has to be clear that you all want what's best for him and that means you're all going to stick to certain rules.

Otoh, I think a bit of very juicy buck fizz at Christmas is not the end of the world and it might be nice for him to know that some things are still the same.

Glad things are going generally well though!

I meant to say, he's going to be with her all over CHristmas. I would like her to stick to our rules over this time and not give him pudding unless he has made an effort. It's hard to teach a child table manners that are usually introduced much much earlier.

We had his birthday dinner this evening, I had resolved not to say anything on this special occasion, but in fact I saw he really was trying. He thinks I'm just being posh and doesn't believe me when I say it's important to have reasonable table manners. He says, but if it was so important, why didn't granny make me?

Thanks Laweasel, things are going pretty well although tomorrow he's a teenager so we'll see what happens . I don't want him to have alcohol firstly because he's not bothered about it at all, she almost foisted it on him, calling it 'fizzbuzz'. Also, the family has a massive history of alcohol and drug abuse that will I expect ultimately leave her with 1 of her original 3 children. I don't know what she is thinking.

If you are his main carer, then you are probably going to get the message across in the time he is with you.

I understand you don't want things to slide again but this will be very difficult for granny and your nephew- she won't want to be the baddie who harps on at him.She wants to make sure he returns. If you are his guardian, then let her granny him - I think you will be able to work on it again .

I do think I would draw the line at the BIucks Fizz though.

By the way, so glad things are going well for you all. I bet granny is delighted too- she obviously found caring for him a challenge and, I suspect, will be grateful for how things are now and won't want to upset that too much.

Spinaroo, if I let her granny him she sends out the clear message that it's fine to behave that way. I don't think that's right.

mamateur- I realise this is a tricky one but I don't think we can ever tell grandparents exactly what to do- they can be a law unto themselves. They give more sweets than we might, probably accept a bit more lip than we would, don't insist on manners in quite the same way, make excuses for them, indulge them etc.

If you are present, you can control the situation but you can't be sure of what goes on when you are not. Children learn what is acceptable in some situations is not in others.

In saying that, your situation is one which I do not have experience of, so whilst my advice is well intentioned, it may not be appropriate in your case.

By the way- I do not mean to be disparaging to grandparents. Their role is very different to that of a parent. They have done their job bringing us up and now get the good bits without the disciplining etc. I have no issue with that ( in case any grandparents are reading)

I don't think you can dictate how she does things in her house. But then you might well be back to square one for a bit afterwards as you once again pick up the pieces.

I don't understand how she lets him be 'raised by dingoes' if she has nice table manners herself. Maybe she doesn't know how to get the message across, or is afraid of upsetting him? The best thing would be if you could tactfully tell her what's worked for you, and suggest that she does X, Y & Z. But you can't dictate, I don't think.

I'm sorry I'm just so angry. She has handed him to us to bring up because she can't. And yet she is happy to indulge him, when with her, so she's not the 'bad guy'. That's right, we're the bad guys!

Tearing, DP remembers her saying to him a few years ago, that she had taken him somewhere and seen him eat with the other children and, in her own words, she said she realised she had failed him by not showing him how to behave.

Spinaroo, I do appreciate what you're saying, but I really feel it relates more to a normal granny relationship. You can afford to spoil a child in that role. But she is the 'mother' figure, so what she says is very hard for us to contradict. I can't say to him that granny is wrong, it does matter and she should have taught him from an early age how to hold a fork.

you sound like you are doing a great job and you are not the bad guys at all

you have taken on a huge responsibility and granny needs to help by doing things your way, this is not a normal situation and needs to be treated accordingly

good luck

You sound like you are doing a fantastic job. and I think it's right that he is still in such close contact with his 'mum'.

and fair flipping play to her - no matter what her mistakes were - as she took him on from small, when presumably she thought her child rearing days were over.

But

"which are fruit no pudding if no effort. And no alcohol (last year she gave him 3 bucks fizz on Christmas day. He was 11)."

fruit as a punishment or 'second choice' style option, over pudding? I don't think this is a great idea.

and a bit of bucks fizz on Xmas day is not going to turn him into an alcoholic. I think it's quite reasonable.

It sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with him,and he is lucky to have you. Maybe now he is getting older you need to be looking more to him for the motivation for change. I mean by explaining that catastrophic table manners will make people judge him unfairly, and that you can help him sort that out,rather than telling him he should be behaving in a certain way because thats what you value.

Apologises if you are already on this tack-it does sounds like within the framework you are giving him he is really trying to change himself. Could you do a joint chat with both of them saying 'X has been working so hard on his table manners, I think you will be really impressed' and then a quiet chat with her about supporting him? It must be difficult to talk to her about it all without her feeling defensive about having failed him.

No, I don't think you should bother. Let Granny and the child have a lovely xmas doing as they please. He's not likely to forget your lessons during this time. And as you say, he really tried today so why would he not do this on his return?

You say two of her children have gone to drink and drugs because of the way she brought them up. Should DN be having supervised access at your house perhaps rather than being allowed to say at Grannie's? How you have found the will to take this on though I don't know but you are doing a fantastic job.

I don't think you can expect granny to use exactly the same rules you've been following - ie no pudding for bad table manners or whatever - if she's never done it before - I think it has to be her house, her rules. But you could enthuse to her (going a bit OTT, perhaps) about how great it is that DN has been making a real effort to eat more nicely, use cutlery properly, and suggest that she could also give him lots of praise for doing the same thing while he's with her?

Drinking is more difficult. How would she respond to a fairly frank chat about the family history of alcohol problems and therefore the idea that it's best not to force/encourage DN to start on alcohol already? Is she a heavy drinker herself? I can see why you're worried, but if he will be living mainly with you from now onwards, what happens at Granny's house will become less and less relevant, with any luck.

If I have to explain to her that two of her children have lost their lives to drugs and alcohol (orphaning DN) then I really don't know where to start.

Not exactly the same rules. Laweasel posted above and hit the nail on the head. It's about being consistent. We do things a certain way because it's the right way, not because of a personal whim.

She is extremely intelligent, well-ready, charming, educated etc. But weak weak weak. SHe has to follow our lead. It's unfair of her to ask us to do this and then not support us. If she has 'a lovely Christmas doing as they please' then we are still 'boot camp' not normal family life.

Hairyfairy, I have had to use the tactic available to me. He loves chocolate. I would like him to eat with good manners for no other reason than that it is better but I'm realistic. He needs an incentive and chocolate pudding in the one I came up with, and hopefully it will become second nature with time. I'm afraid fruit will be second choice with or without me!

I think given how well he is now doing at school etc since you have been looking after him, I doubt he sees you as 'bootcamp'. He seems to be thriving on your boundaries and example setting and even if he doesnt acknowledge it is happier with your stricter rules- you know this precisely because he is turning his life around. He IS listening to you, and at his age the majority of his behaviour changes are self motivated to please you and get your respect, and because he knows its the better way forward. I dont think she can spoil it for you, if he was happy with her way of doing things he wouldnt have been falling apart at school.

Can I just say that he is going to turn out just fine...with two people...you and his Gran (and your DH) who obviously care so much about him he will be great.

It sounds like you're doing an amazing job tbh and some of his problems like the table manners thing are quite normal at this age.

I hope his Gran will make an effort.must be very hard for her too...if she doesn't however...well...at least he's loved!

Maryz good to hear you, I've appreciated your input on previous threads. I get sooo angry. But you're right, all we can do is - our home our rules, and stick to them. We are in charge now. I just think she would add so much weight to our words, because he loves her so much.

A few weeks ago he went to stay with her. He had a really important homework to do (it was when he was being moved, at our insistence, into mainstream classes). I said exactly what he needed to do. SHe told me it was done and she was pleased with his efforts. I checked it when she brought him back late on Sunday night and found he had scrawled about 200 words on a scrap of paper instead of 2 sides of A4. Aaaahgg.