to want a dog that bit me put to sleep?

[pickgo]

I was out for a walk with DS, DGS and mother on Sunday. We walked past a woman with 3 children and a dog on the lead. As we passed her on the pavement the dog leapt up at me and bit me on the chest.
Fortunately I had 6 layers of clothing on so it has only left me bruised, the skin is not actually broken.
The dog owner apologised. She admitted she already had a muzzle for the dog but hadn't put it on this time [OBVIOUSLY!!].
I said her apology wasn't good enough. What if I'd had a baby in a sling, or it was one of the children? What if it goes for one of her children? Told her I thought the dog should be put to sleep.
Ironically, I myself had a dog some years ago that randomly bit people. I too always kept it on a lead but one day it leapt into a pram and I was terrified it would bite the baby. That day I took my dog to the vet to ask for advice. The vet's advice was that once a dog has crossed 'the line' of biting people it will always be a possibility it will do it again. So I had the dog put to sleep. A sad, hard decision but I think the right one.
So, AIBU to want this dog put down? Surely I should be able to go out for a walk without being mauled by an animal and left injured?

KangarooCaught, just at a guess the dog you described sounds like a Chow Chow. The colour more often seen is red, black chows are rarer.

To SARAHSTRATTON

i answered this point earlier when i asked what you meant by 'deliberate' as deliberate can imply different processes, explained the purpose at looking at the context and background(as the police in this case appear to have done) so as to deal with the psychology behind the behaviour, that some biting dogs an be dealt with thru management and rehab programmes, and not all bite incidents can be grouped as the same things.

i have also asked if the OP is able to somehow pass on some behaviour and training support contacts thru her present dealings?

Thanks clutha. I think it's really important with something like this that the type of dog bite is clear. I don't agree with keeping dogs that have attacked a human alive, simply because I don't believe they can ever be trusted again. However, a dog that bites in a different context should not be compared and those circumstances examined.

Sadly, there are plenty of irresponsible dog owners around. There's one on Chat right now asking about defrauding an insurance company FFS.

i agree.

from the info given by the original poster i feel that dog is not at a level requiring it be PTS and that the police have gone about things the right way in that the owner appears to have learnt her lesson, is aware her dog is behaving from a point of an emotional trauma, and will endeavour to act and manage her dog in a more secure way in future.

which is why i am asking again if pingko (spelling) can somehow relay some behaviour/training support resources to her from me?

Thanks Val, it's certainly v close, if not indeed that dog, just no ruff & less pretty!

"I don't agree with keeping dogs that have attacked a human alive, simply because I don't believe they can ever be trusted again"

Well, you're wrong. Ask Val, she has been involved in rehabilitating hundreds, if not more, dogs that have bitten or 'gone for' people.

There are so many reasons a dog bites someone. If, in the example of the OP, a dog bites someone because it has been through trauma and therefore nervous around strangers, it is perfectly possible to prevent the dog biting anyone ever again, through rehabilitation and management. This ks the case with most dog bites. There is a post about a dog bite in the doghouse section at the moment, where a dog has bitten one child one two occasions and another child on one occasion. All of those bites were preventable had the dog been managed properly, there was no reason for it to bite at all, let alone repeatedly.

I do agree though that there are plenty of irresponsible owners about. Dog licencing in the way it exists/existed is not the ay forward though. I live in Northern Ireland, where we still have dog licences. How dogs are looked after here is like England 30 years ago. Lots of free roaming, little uptake of vacination or neutering, dogs commonly kept outside, not as house pets etc. They need to do something to address the problems, but whilst the goverment view dog breeding as a legitimate business, that will never happen.

my extended family has a dog that bites everyone, in her family, and my family.

am not impressed.

it was a puppy when they got it, so we all thought it was just getting it teeth, as all dogs do.

but, it def thinks its top of the pack, in fact it believes its somewere in between the kids, with some of them below him.

training, by its owners, inconsistant, with no real sticking to rules.

it bites when you put its lead on, even though it likes a short walk.

it bites feet, esp in the garden, and childrens feet.

it will jump up and bite your upper leg if YOU decide where to take it for a walk...

if it spots something on the table, and you move him away from it, yes, youve guessed it, it will 'go for you' .....

there have been so many excuses for its behaviour, its a baby, (its now 2yrs old)it needs his nuts sorted out by the vet (thats been done, no change in temperment).......

promises to take to dog behaviour classes, (which are in my opinon for the owners, to train them to treat it like a dog, rather than an extra furry baby) , but that hasnt happened. life gets in the way.

i wont have the dog in my home any more, have kept photos of the teeth marks , bruises and blood on my dd leg.

during the summer he went for a elderly friend at a party.... i was particulary cross at that, and noises were made about perhaps the doggy needed a nice permanant injection. which upset the adult owners considerably.
thankfully the dog and his teeth didnt make contact to bite, and knock over the elderly friend, who is unstable on legs due to age.

have to say, that i thinks its their fault for having a dog in the home without studying the training required and training the whole family to be on the same page, ie , he is a dog.

some of the kids are not interested in the dog, due mainly to the bleeding and teeth marks on their feet.

however they all seem to except this as just the dogs character.

it does make a escape from the home, but has , so far been caught and dragged back with bribery..........
i dread the day when the dog escapes and bites someone. its not fussy who he bites, so it wont end well.....

Clutha, are you going to admit your professional interest to the OP now? :o

Pickgo, if Clutha thinks that the Police were acting reasonably in the decision they made I think that you can be reassured that they have.

Well I think I'm right. My opinion is as valid as yours as neither of us have actually met this dog. The responsibility/irresponsibility of the owner has to become irrelevant at some stage when a biting dog is involved. It's a dog. it is less important than a child/elderly person/well anyone really. If a dog that had bitten before bit one of my children I would go to hell and back to ensure that dog was PTS so it couldn't bite anyone ever again.

How can you possibly say that a rehabilitated dog will never bite again? How can you be SO sure that will never happen, that someone will not be scarred for life by that dog biting them?

I really fail to see how you can tbh.

"It's a dog. it is less important than a child/elderly person/well anyone really."

Like fuck he is!

So to you a random dog is as important as your child? Well to me, my children are way, way more important than an animal. Actually YOUR children would be more important to me than an animal.

And the bit about being able to guarantee a rehabilitated dog will never bite again?

You can't guarantee any dog will never bite, by that logic we should kill them all. And all other animals while we're at it .

But I think this is one of those arguments where there will never be any agreement or comprehension between those who think 'it's just a dog' and those of us who believe dogs lives are valuable too and not to be thrown away lightly...

No, the vast majority of dogs don't ever bite, but a dog that HAS bitten has crossed that line. A dog bite is more dangerous than a cat, or most other pets. You don't see headlines about people being savaged to death by guinea pigs but ones about dogs are not exactly unknown.

I DO think dogs lives are valuable. I have 2 dogs and I absolutely love them to bits. But I would still put either one of them to sleep if they attacked and bit a person. Because I couldn't personally live easily with the knowledge that one of my dogs could do that again, and I couldn't absolutely guarantee that wouldn't happen in any other way.

"How can you possibly say that a rehabilitated dog will never bite again? How can you be SO sure that will never happen, that someone will not be scarred for life by that dog biting them?"

In the same way I can say that my own dogs will not, in normal circumstances (eg. in the middle of a dog fight) bite anyone. Not because they are not capable of biting, because any dog is, but because they have been socialised in such a way that the threshold at which they would bite is exceptionally high and because they are managed responsibly in such a way that a bite wouldn't occur.

As I said, Val has FAR more experiene than I or most of the people on this forum or that I know in dealing with 'dangerous' dogs. I recall her saying in around 20 years she's only been bitten once.

I agree with Val, my dogs are as important as my children. Just like all my DC are equally important as each other.

Thank you. That is exactly what I am trying to say. I know that my dogs will not bite anyone because I have socialised them since they were puppies, starting with carrying and holding them at the school gate before they had their vacs. They have been to puppy classes, training classes and walked with a variety of different dogs and people the whole of their lives. In other words they are treated as dogs, not as an extension of my family. They know the pecking order and they know their place in it.

BUT. If the unthinkable happened and one of my dogs did bite someone, other than incidentally, then I would not hesitate to put it down. Because nobody, but nobody can guarantee that a dog will NEVER bite again. And I will not have that on my conscience, the thought that someone, somewhere could be injured, scarred or at the very worst killed when I could have prevented it.

Val herself may have only been bitten once in 20 years. She is obviously incredibly experienced with dogs but very few people have that level of experience. There is absolutely no way she, or anyone else, can guarantee that one of the rehabilitated dogs that she knows will never bite someone else again.

And my children are far more important to me than my dogs. Equally important as each other, but far more important than any animal. I fail to see how anyone could put an animal's life above a persons.

"So to you a random dog is as important as your child?"

Are you really asking something to which the answer is obvious or do you think that by asking you'll somehow change what I'm all about and get me to express a different opinion? :o

YES!

WRT the guarantees of rehabilitation - there are no guarantees in this world. Except death and taxes. But in the right hands the chances of rehabilitation are very high indeed and that will do for me.

I don't put any animals life above that of my DC, they are equal to them and yes, they are an extension of my family, although they are still treated like dogs. Just like my DC are more important to me than other people, so are my dogs. I appreciate most people don't feel like that and that's fine. I prefer dogs to most people.

It is in the same way that you or I could say that our dogs won't bite someone, that a rehabilitated dog can be trusted not to bite someone. They don't just bite out of the blue, they bite for a reason and once that reason is established and dealt with and they are managed properly, they are no more likely to bite than any other dog.

I don't have children (yet), so can't speak about that, and how I'd feel about children/dogs relative to each other. But I know I could not have my dog killed because of a chance he might bite someone, not any more than I think people should be executed because we can't guarantee they'll never attack anyone again. I couldn't have that on my conscience. Killing in that situation is a completely ridiculously disproportionate response IMO.

No, I have absolutely no expectations of you changing your opinions. They are obviously very firmly engrained. However, it is interesting to hear them.

Ephiny can I make it absolutely clear that I have never said that. What I actually said was that IF one of my dogs DELIBERATELY bit someone I would have them put to sleep. I have not stated anywhere that dogs should just be put to sleep because they might bite someone. I just would never risk a dog biting someone deliberately AGAIN.

I hope that clears that one up.

"They are obviously very firmly engrained."

:o I put it down to old age and cynicism, Sarah. :o

Hello Val

Im not too sure what you mean when you asked if i will admit my professional interest to Pickgo?

I am a dog trainer, i did say a while back.
I have also worked in rescue for many years, which i mentioned earlier.

Due to both, i have had dealings with dnagerous dog legislation and police officers.

Due to all of this and my contacts and knowledge, i feel, from the details given by pickgo, that this dog has potential to be managed and rehabilatated well.

I would just like to help that process along by passing on details via pickgo's dealings with the dog owner regarding as and how she could get further assistance and guidance.

Although i have asked this question about 5 times now, so not too sure if Pickgo has seen it or just isnt interested?

assistance and