To not give my children the swine flu vaccine?

[wintersnow]

I decided not to last year as I wanted to wait and see how safe it was but am reconsidering this year after several people have died. Did you give it to your children and what were your reasons to give/not give it?

Valhalla if you had to choose between living in country in which everyone mandatorily was vaccinated and a country in which no-one was vaccinated (even if they wanted) ....

which would you choose ?

eragon
We do travel a lot but tbh the threat to unvaccinated children in 4 or 5 star hotels in Spain or Barbados is not massively greater than in the uk.

The gap year question has little to do with me. Once my children are old enough they xan take responsibility for their own body. My 17 year old son already makes his own vaccination choices which I find interesting in terms of how hevresearches and the choices he makes.

Cumfy.

Unvaccinated. I would have to leave the country or lie or seek waivers if vaccination became compulsory.

Hmm, wouldn't be so sure about Barbados. I'm sure Cheryl Cole didn't expect to come down with malaria in Tanzania.

Well nothing is 100 % is it. And we have been three times without mishap.

It is all about reasonable risk rather than being fearful of every remote prospect. Dd is in more danger every time I put her in the car than from getting some disease during two weeks at the blahblah hotel.

Are there any societies in the world that have achieved low infant and child mortality without mass immunization? Just out of interest, is there ONE country or even community, at all?

the one example I know of is in northern Nigeria there was the third world equivalent of this kind of rich country scaremongering with the polio vaccine - and surprise, surprise, there was an outbreak of polio. Did they do the right thing there by refusing the polio vaccine?

Not sure if you are talking to me stat a as I am sensing some goading. I am not anti vaccine so would have no reason to investigate mass vaccination.
I just have a difficult family history and won't risk it for my dcs

pagwatch

couldn't agree more about risk of travelling in the car. exactly same applies to risk of vaccinating if your child doesn't have any reason not to have it though.

and couldn't agree more that nothing is 100% or risk free, which is why i guess Cherly Cole figured that she'd be safe without anti-malarials staying in 5 star hotels. I did the same when I went to Tanzania recently (more due to bad planning than anything else though - if I went with my kids, I'd make sure they took anti-malarials!). But in her case it didn't pay off. I'm sure she bitterly regrets not taking anti-malarials (and she could have been to Tanzania 20 times before, it doesn't matter, the chances of her getting sick are the same on each trip - it's an independent probability).

Although Barbados isn't such a good example since they vaccinate their children there. Your kids are actually probably more at risk from avoidable diseases in the UK than overseas!

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article4821352.ece

pagwatch

no goading. just trying to understand.

but if your children have some reason why they would be higher risk to a bad reaction to immunisations then of course they shouldn't have them

it's for children like yours though that other people's children like mine should have them.

Fair enough.

But I think the point about risk perception remains.
We each seek to protect our own children as best we can. We just may not agree on how to do that.

I don't think many avoid vac because they are glib. Most parents care deeply about these issues.
Just because we disagree we shouldn't forget that.

How do you know which child will react though Stata? Yes, some things flag up certain children as more at risk but there is no definite way of knowing. Also, artificial herd immunity is a bit questionable anyway. There have been outbreaks in communities with nearly 100% vaccination rate and vaccine immunity wears off so there's no real way of knowing what percentage of a population has immunity at any one time.

That's interesting. Do you know which diseases and in which communities? Are these isolated outbreaks (ie something unusual) or something systematic? I hadn't heard about that.

There's no doubt that if you get high levels of coverage, then an unvaccinated child is far far less likely to be exposed to the disease. Why wouldn't that be the case? Sure, it's not 100% but you're greatly reducing the chances. If my child couldn't be vaccinated, then I would sure be glad that they were still not likely to get measles, mumps, polio or some other nasty.

There are children who shouldn't be immunised, as I understand it. And there are suggestions that some other children might be more at risk (so why not err on the side of caution with them). But at the population level, there seems to be very very low levels of risk (otherwise all the endless studies would have picked up on something and surely one country in the world would not be vaccinating). Since I don't have any reason to believe my children belong to a group at higher risk, why wouldn't I immunise them - and benefit your children at the same time. Win win situation, no?

pag

I don't doubt for a second that the reason not to vaccinate stems for concern for your child's wellbeing.

But I do think that the risk involved in vaccinating for the vast majority of children has been blown out of all proportion and I just don't see the majority of studies on vaccine safety supporting this.

My heart goes out to the babies and immuno-compromised children who are going to catch and be permanently damaged (or possibly die) from measles and mumps.

Actually, the whole debate reminds me of trying to work with the South African government on ARV treatment during Mbeki's time. They argued that AIDS isn't caused by HIV and many of their arguments were based on the same logic as I see here. Unfrtunately they WERE in authority then and basically thousands of people died unnecessarily.

Am gobsmacked by some of the posts on this thread. There is a real ignorance evident about vaccines and the implications of not having them, particularly on children who have not yet had the opportunity to be vaccinated. IMHO, if you haven't been vaccinated, you shouldn't be at nursery. My DD 10.5months has had all of the appropriate vaccines. If an unvaccinated child a few years older at nursery had e.g. measles and passed it to my little one I would be v. unhappy.

All the panic over vaccines is bizarre- much higher risk of death or long term negative effect from the actual diseases than from the vaccine. Bloody Andrew Wakefield and the Daily Mail have a lot to answer for.

Stata, iirc it was measles in schools in the US. I'll try looking stuff up later - I have a very stuffy toddler here at the moment who doesn't want to go to sleep! I think it comes up if you google 'measles outbreak in vaccinated population'.

I think the problem is that even when you have the vaccine there is no guarantee that you won't get the disease and the fact that immunity from a vaccine wears off as well. It always bothers me that the finger of blame is pointed at the unvaccinated child when there are outbreaks of something - unless you have had your vaccinated child's immunity tested to make sure that they are immune and your own immunity tested to make sure that you are still immune then you and your child could be just as likely to contract/pass on the disease.

Weemee - read my second paragraph.

Leonie, the fear about cp is already starting to filter in over here in the UK as well. It was pretty much inevitable once there was mention of a vaccine being introduced. Someone on another thread was mentioning the rotavirus vaccine as well - something not routinely given in the UK either but I think you would be considered wholly irresponsible for not having it in the US. I suppose they think we're all mad for not giving our children the hepatitis vaccine at birth either...funny how once a vaccine becomes available the disease all of a sudden becomes something to worry about.

but I find the best info about vaccines comes from the US. There are a lot of knowledgeable people in the US, even though some states mandate the use of vaccines.