to want to cry when i see cold children

[countless]

don't people understand or care that small children sitting inert in pushchairs need to be wrapped up appropriately
i see so many everyday. little red hands. no snuggle. no hat. bare legs between sock and trouser leg. frozen rigid

even worse when person pushing is warmly wrapped

DS2 is one of those that refuses even a coat.

In the snow last week I had no chance of getting one on him at the end of the day at nursery - I tried, the Nannies tried, his brother tried.

In the end we walked from the nursery to the ccar with him just in his long sleeved top and vest. I was wrapped up in coat, gloves, scarf etc and bet I was judged - but with my defiant, behavioural problematic 2 year old I pick my battles.

dd4 wont keep gloves on, but her snowsuit has fold over mitts, so i use them once she is asleep to keep her hands warm

under her snowsuit, she often has trousers, and to stop that chilly gap appearing between trews and boots, baby legwarmers.

she has a tie on hat.

Children, like adults, have different tolerances for heat and cold and, in the vast majority of cases, the mother or father will be perfectly well aware of what those tolerances are. I don't for one minute believe that the world is full of people thinking "Ooh it's cold, puffa jacket and wellies for me, shorts and sandals for the DC." If these people do exist then they don't seem to live round my way.

My 17 month old is showing signs of taking after his father and refusing to accept that it might be even a teeny bit chilly until we have polar bears trekking through the garden. I, on the other hand, despite being a hardy northerner, spend the entire winter in a quest for warmth. I have been known to stand inappropriately close to strangers at bus-stops just because they looked warm.

We use a wrap sling full-time. I have only used a snowsuit twice with the wrap and we were both wringing wet within 15 minutes. In this cold weather he wears jeans,a long sleeve top and a fleece over it, a hat and his normal socks and shoes. He won't wear mittens - he rips them off with his teeth and throws them away. He regularly takes his hat off. We have the dreaded gap between trousers and socks and if I try to put my arms around his legs to cover it he chunters at me and pushes my arms away. If his hands get cold he shoves them down my back. If he wants his hat back on then he bashes me on the he bashes me on the head with it. He has never shown any signs of being cold. The shared body heat advantage is huge. Even I, cold-blooded as I am, don't wear a coat when I am slinging him in the winter as I get too hot. I just wear a wooly hooded top and occasionally a pair of arm warmers. I don't wear a scarf or anything like that. No doubt we are one of the mum and baby combos who have been judged spotted by MNetters.

For what it's worth, the Innuit women carry their babies in pouches sewn into the back of their coats. I think it is probably colder there....

My DS is one of those who takes his hat off at every opportunity and his gloves.

YANBU though, my dad used to be the santa at our primary school until one year when my friend sat there and where as all of us asked for toys, she asked for a warm winter coat He couldn't do it after that as it made him really sad!

YADNBU. And to those of you who never see this, you must live in areas where people take better care of their kids than they do round my way :(

We have had a couple of bad cases of child neglect from our local area hit the papers over the past year. And I see miserable-looking children in totally inadequate clothing at least 2/3 times a week here. The bitterness of weather like today's is hard to anticipate given that it's not the norm, but still, it's horrid to see them when they look like their systems are practically shutting down.

What areas are you all in where you see this happening? Is it a middle class thing I wonder (I tend to assume the majority of MNetters are middle class)? Here in chavsville the complete opposite is true - kids all bundled up cosily while their parents trip around in pumps with no socks, a hoodie and no gloves, scarf or hat.

That said I am in possession of an almost 4 year old who refuses to wear his hat or gloves on the school run. I carry them in my pocket in case he changes his mind.

Hmmm! I'm in possession of a 14yo who when a toddler complained like hell about hats gloves and socks. Unfortunately for him, I am the parent. I bought him tights, a balaclava and granny knitted him mittens on a string. Dd had an amazing cosy toes, it came right up to her head and had a draw tape in the top to turn it into a sort of cocoon. Yes, I forced my children to wear coats. I'll own up, I cant stand the thought of them being cold. Still can't! They still get ski jackets in winter and a new set of thermals every year. I don't see the point in winter coats that aren't at least water proof. Neither of them have overheated yet!

I am in Leith in Edinburgh. Quite odd mix of middle class families, working class families and quite deprived families in my immediate neighbourhood.

i am obsessive about keeping ds warm, have brought longjohns, longsleeved vests and padded coat and even waterproof trousers, hats and scarves and gloves, however he puts his hands in the snow and they get wet and so i have to take them off, so when you see my son briefly without gloves, am i a bad mum?

santassnowyoldclothcatpuss- exactly! thank goodness i'm not alone in 'forcing' my dc to wear hats, gloves etc. i really don't understand when people say their dc refuse to wear them. some things are non-negotiable

ValiumShimmer- yes i'm the boss i don't tolerate dissent on cold weather clothing. ds 18, just left the house -4 and had no choice but to wear hat, gloves and scarf. i had less success with his friend but he did agree to a scarf!

So countless, do you staple them to your child's head? What's your secret? I wrestle the hat on, he takes it off, and he can keep that up indefinitely. We have to get to school and it's not exactly the antarctic here - around 0 degrees is usually as cold as it gets. So I carry it. If it's a case of him wanting to go somewhere then I have more leverage - playing out in the snow today meant he HAD to wear scarf, gloves, hat etc. If he'd have refused he wouldn't have been allowed out.

You do realise that your 18 year old probably rounded the corner and too his 'cold weather clothing' off don't you!

mrsgravy like i said some things are non negotiable. dd 3yo likes wrapping up. dd 16m tolerates mostly but has her moments of resistance. maybe it's the deathstare but the dc know that i'm the boss and if a hat's to be worn it will be.

i'm sometimes confused when people say 'pick your battles' and then offer an odd example of this.

and ds would have to carry his hat, scarf and gloves if he took them so it's unlikely he will. i make him wear vests too! and he is an extremely cool sort of guy. we had a few battles in early teens but he knows mother knows best!

'some things are non-negotiable': what, telling an 18yo what to wear?! Jeez. I kind of think at that age I hope I'll be worrying about making sure they have taxi fare in their shoe, not driving drunk and not getting girls pregnant as non-negotiable, not wrapping up perfectly able-bodied thinking beings capable of making their own decisions with a hat, gloves and scarf. How humiliating.

"some things are non negotiable"

Countless - all I can say is [snort]

My first child hated dressing up and I would force him into the clothes, zip up the zips while he screamed blue murder and then push him along the road feeling fairly smug that my force of will had triumphed over his.

Along came second child and I realised that force of will sometimes wasn't enough.

He not only screams blue murder but also flails, bites and claws my face while I try to get his clothes on, then spends the entire buggy ride ripping off said clothes. He is 23 months and can unzip and remove his coat, pull off his gloves, untie his under-the-chin-fastening-hat (tied in a double granny knot) and kick off his buggy snuggle.

I usually end up pushing a blue child along the road with a coat, gloves and hat dangling off the handlebars and the buggy snuggle trailing in the snow.

Like to have a try at "non-negotiating" with him? You'd be very welcome

Actually after he's blue he usually lets me re-dress him. But it has to be when he wants.

I am all for choosing your battles but i think that you need to be able to control your two year old enough to get them to wear outdoor clothes

I wouldnt blame anyone for not bothering with a hat/gloves with an otherwise well dressed child but the scenario that theyoungvisitor describes is silly

If you cant get them to behave at two, what will you do when they are older?

He's actually very well behaved. He's very cheerful and smiley and generally does what he's told in most situations.

He just doesn't like being over-dressed (as he sees it). I don't think that's unreasonable. And I also don't think that good parenting is about forcing your will on your child at all costs. It's about helping them to make good decisions and understand the consequences of their actions.

If it was a life or death issue then of course I would assert my authority. But it's not. If he gets a bit cold in the pushchair then what's going to happen?

From his point of view it's very logical -0 when he's warm, he doesn't want to wear lots of layers. When he gets chilly he's happy to rethink. I don't think that's a parenting disaster and I don't think people should feel unduly smug because they have a child who's different.

haha i'm a tyrant and i make no apologies for that

theyoungvisiter- well obviously my dc don't put up a fight like yours do so hats off to you

willself- i don't think ds feels humiliated, preparing to leave the house on a sub zero night in inadequate clothing is obviously going to invite comment. ds partly to stop me moaning and partly cos he knows it makes sense wrapped up warm. i bought his girlfriend an amazingly warm hat last week and she was delighted

Slings are a bit different though. When I carry my babies in the hugabub we both have minimal on and then I put a big coat/pashmina around both of us. Even in minus degree temperatures we both end up sweating like mad otherwise. The combined body heat makes a snowsuit a really bad idea. I do do socks though.

My DS1 loves the cold, he would happily wear shorts and t-shirt to play in the snow, poor kid is suffering with adapting to an Australian summer.

My nursery manager has actually told me NOT to force my DC into coats if they don't want to wear them. She says that current thinking in child development circles is that 'natural consequences' offer the best way for a child to learn about cause and effect and encourages a life-long development of independent thinking and reasoning. Obviously there are limits - running out into the road to see the natural consequence of being hit by a car is not a good idea - but unless there are serious consequences, better to let them find out for themselves.

My 2 and half year old had hat, gloves scarf on today but was still crying cos of how cold he was - heaven forbid what he would have being like without hat and scarf and gloves.

here's my experience:

DS1 - now 8 - always hated hats, gloves, etc. Would happily go out in shorts and t-shirt in snow now. I've learned to pick my battles and take gloves, hats, etc with me but he always declines and hasn't suffered any ill effects. Used to stress about it but figure he got to age 8 just fine so let it go.

DS2 - loves to be wrapped up and hates being cold. Complete opposite to DS1.

DD1 - looking to follow in DS1s footsteps. She's 11 months and contstantly rips off her hat and gloves. So far so good - no illness.

And with all 3 I would definitely say snowsuit with sling/wrap is too much. Are you aware how much body heat you give out and how dangerous being overheated is for babies?

judge what the child needs. And only judge the child that you actually know

I am at a loss as to how you reason with a 17 month old that they must wear a hat because it's cold outside?! I ave ones with straps that I've tied under his chin and it is ripped off in a fit of rage. Putting the mittens on first worked for a while until he worked out how to pull the hat off with the mittens on (oh, a whole 5 mins). Putting the hood up over the hat just enraged him and the little wriggler managed to get out of the coat without undoing the zip and buttons.

I'd love to see the "death stare" working on him...

Arf.

DS2 is my first voluntary hat wearer, it's brilliant! My first winter without tuts! He wears a fleece snowsuit, I hate those super padded ones for sling use, they make it very tricky.

DS1 is impervious to temperature - trousers, long sleeved top on the hottest day of the year, same thing yesterday - had to wrestle him to get his coat on. He will not wear hats or hoods. He has now resigned to gloves because I found a pair that amused him, but they still dangle from the sleeves most of the time.

DD is older and wiser (slightly) but still thinks ballet pumps are just the thing for going out in the snow. Apparently wellies are not cool, who knew?

YANBU if they're definitely cold. YABU if you're one of the women who have accosted me with DD to take issue with my dressing decisions at various times of year just because they don't understand that wraps are an extra layer and that children don't melt in the rain/ freeze in the snow if appropriately dressed.

A recent classic was during the freezing weather a couple of weeks ago. I was walking 15 mins home with DD from our Au Pair's flat. It was late (10ish) because we'd been celebrating Finnish national day with a Finnish dinner (DH and AP are both Finnish). DD was wearing a Finnish snowsuit, Finnish snow boots, mittens, and hat tied under her chin with hood up. It is a seriously warm outfit and the only bit of visible skin was the face. I was carrying her and she was happily singing to me as we walked.

Suddenly this po-faced woman comes up to me and says severely 'That baby looks freezing!'. It was so absurd that I laughed out loud and just carried on walking. Why would you do this?

togorama - you must meet the same people as me.

I discovered that a conversation-killing response to old ladies who get hysterical because we are using the sling in the rain is "Oh no! We might MELT!" accompanied by panicky expression and a lot of arm-waving. They generally go away then.