to think it is unreasonable to treat a woman like a lesser person

[KalokiMallow]

just because of how she is dressed?

Is this how we want girls to grow up? Knowing that they will be judged for what they wear rather than who they are? Surely they should be free to wear what they like without having to worry about how they are seen?

Are you annoyed over this:?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1103092-is-this-x-factor-or-some-porn-video

My point is there's a time and place.
I've nothing against being sexually provovative in the right context.

I suppose I do think lesser of people who misjudge that.

I've been reading the X factor thread and haven't got to that bit yet, so I'm saying this not knowing exactly what you're trying to get at.

Tight clothes in my mind are for a sexual come on, if you're going out on the pull then you accentuate your figure, high heels for making the legs look longer, red lips to look aroused.

There's nothing wrong with that and it doesn't make them a lesser person, but it would cross my mind why someone would be doing that shopping on a Thursday afternoon.

If you're asking whether I want to make my DD aware of what clothes can and do say about how you feel, then yes of course I do, because it's the truth and she should know it matters.

It'd be nice for it to not matter, but it does.

Sorry Kaloki. I get ya now innit

I certainly don't assume that women or girls are of less worth if they dress in tight sexually provocative clothes.

I do assume though that they are looking for male attention for their attractive figures.

Which I guess makes me think that they are quite calculatedly exploiting what they've got, in a lowest common denominator sort of way. Which could be because she's clever and cynical, or dumb and eager to please.

There is also the option that they think they are dressing 'for themselves', but haven't spent very long considering why their society and culture might have shaped them that way.

But meh, they are all just people, and I don't see them as irredeemably stupid or as a predatory threat, because I like to think I am a bit more reflective than that.

I think this is a difficult topic. The feminist in me says that a woman should wear whatever the hell she wants and sod those who judge her on that basis. However, another side of me says that the way we choose to present ourselves to the world says something about who we are and how we want to be perceived and that it is niave or deliberately obtuse to deny that is the case. Sorry, I struggle to reach a conclusion on this one.

victoria I'm annoyed at the way derogatory terms are used for women who choose to dress in different ways (some on the Xfactor threads, but seen all over the place), say describing them as a "bit dim" for example

Ok, very dim. And, anti-social.

Casmama, the feminist in me asks why a woman want to wear what she wants to wear, if you see what I mean. Sometimes it seems that a woman's self esteem is just a reflection of how others see her. So the onus is on the 'watcher' to approve, rather than the woman herself.

Gosh, it's getting late and my brain is starting to chug along on empty...

Anti-social? You can still talk to them you know.

I'm still trying to load a picture of myself in my bee outfit on here for the women in Style and Beauty to consider. Now my bloody USB connection is bent.

Bloody mumsnet!

Yes but we would run out of things to say Kaloki. "Hi", "hi" "you look like a dalek". That would probably be as far as we'd get before they shot me with their laser beams

wukter The problem with that logic is that it also puts the onus on the watcher to decide whether the woman is wearing something she likes or whether she is wearing she's been told to like. And it all gets very confusing. So confusing I've taken a few attempts to try and stop all my typos getting out of control.

I mean, for example. I wear corsets. I love them, I love how they feel. I hate the way loose clothes brush against my skin, irritates the hell out of me. But it is easy for people to look at me dressed that way and assume I do it for others pleasure, not my own. Which is then a fairly slippery slope to being accused of having a lower IQ or being a tease or slut.

Then possibly you are misdirecting the antisocial label victoria

I'm not the one with the death laser beams coming out of my grill mate

Anyway don't you get cold flouncing about in your corset?

I put other things on with it! Especially in this bloody weather!

ps. you try flouncing in a corset!

Oh I love wearing corsets. But I definitely feel that they are 'sex-wear'. They make me feel conscious of my body and that I am displaying it. Which is fine. You can choose to do that for your partner or a wider audience. But it is not a neutral way of dressing.

la la la look at my and my lovely titties! A mac and scarf? Heavens no! They might brush against my skin!

oh x post dammit.

Lets fight about something else

It's not neutral no, tbh nothing I wear is. But I hate the idea that anything that displays your figure (even a non cinched in natural figure) is wrong. And I hate that it's seen as ok to pass comment on it in a derogatory manner.

I might have it wrong Kaloki, but don't you dress a bit goth?

If that were the case, and I'm not sure why, but I would view that as different to a non-goth dressing in a corset routinely

Perhaps because I see it as part of the 'costume and drama' of gothicness?

i wear whatever i want , at the minute my tummy is still traumatised from pregnancy so i will not be wearing anything tight for now but once my figure is back? absolutely, i love gorgoeus clothes, i like short skirts as im tall and they show off my best feature even though i look like an apple on stilts atm, i also tend to be quite dressed up wherever im going because it makes me feel good.If anyone were to judge me without speaking to me they are not worth my time anyway so its win win imo.

victoria This is where tight clothes in layers comes in useful. And I will wear scarves, just tucked into things so they don't brush against me. (yes, I'm odd, I know)