AIBU in being shocked that pupils aren't marked down in exams

[Hammy02]

for having poor spelling and grammar? Apparently the coalition are reintroducing marking down exam papers by 10% if spelling & grammar is not up to scratch. How on earth did the previous government get away with this? No wonder employers are having trouble when people can't write a decent application for a job?

Thankfully most MNers are smart enough to understand my illogical ramblings to some degree otherwise I may have had to slope off to NM

ZZZ - I think many children hardly read at all.
Go on any plane or train journey and all the children will be plugged into Ipods and DS games.
Many children watch hours and hours of TV.
Most kids have a cornucopia of electronics at home.

I once had a conversation with Mallorie Blackman who said she despaired when she went into some schools. The children didn't want to know about literature or art. They didn't even have hopes and dreams. They just want to get rich and famous.

Ariesgirl-I agree with you that it is not necessarily the education system at fault. An education system could be fantastic but if it isn't followed up at home, the school can not be blamed. Even if a school is hopeless, with effort from home I believe results can be achieved. I don't think the same applies the other way round.

It is not that I am not willing to believe it, I just don't know it from personal experience. I see that dc around me read IYSWIM. It could be that what they are reading is a pile of crap for all I know but they seem to have books, go to libraries, read generally (as well as the electronic stuff) but I am not a teacher so I don't see the difficult cases I suppose.

And I'm not taking the moral high ground here on techy stuff. We have everyhting from PS3 to a Wii.

But we limit it.

And we have passed to our children a love of books and reading that means it's something they look forward to. It's never a chore.

A lot of children just don't get that from their parents. They are left to their own devices.

I would be plugged into an Ipod travelling too.

Reading "in motion" makes me VERY sick.

"Cadders1 Wed 24-Nov-10 10:42:16
I disagree that we have a generation of illiterate people activate. We have a literacy rate of 99% in this country. Inflammatory statements will not reform the system effectivley. I am not saying the system does not need to change but we have to combine a number or methods of teaching to ensure we have suitably skilled workforce for the future."

you do know that the word illiterate doesn't just mean 'can't read or write' don't you? It also means a basic ignorance of the fundamentals of a given area or artform. So no it is not inflammatory - we have multiple generations who are ignorant of basic grammar and spelling

Many kids turn on the TV as soon as they get up. They watch it during breakfast until they go to school.

If you ask them what they do after school it's watching telly or facebook or whatever. Sometimes that can be as soon as the get in from school to the second they go to bed.

Ask them what book they're reading and they look at you blankly.

what about somewhere like Soviet Russia (with its many huge failings I hasten to add, like being a repressive police state)? The system of education/the teachers were able to raise a generation of literate children from home where many had illiterate parents, so who was reading to them/teaching them to read etc? I think it can work even without strong parental input. In some places it just has to.

I actually see spelling and grammar as separate issues and would mark down for spelling and grammar in English but only for grammar elsewhere. I think it is important to be able to make yourself understood and to be able to construct a decent sentence no matter what subject you are studying because if you don't, meaning will be lost. Spelling correctly isn't so vital for this. Just my opinion though.

My boys are both taught spelling and grammar although in different ways (one in junior one in infant). I was also taught grammar and even back in the mid 70's and early 80's this was considered rare.

I certainly noticed a difference between the writing ability of my peers and those even 8 to 10 years younger on application forms. I think computers have made people a bit lazy. Type written applications seem to have more mistakes ironically than hand written ones like those I did on leaving university. Not sure why - people relying on technology but not using it properly maybe?

I absolutely agree that reading is vital for grammar though. You won't hear properly constructed sentences being spoken because people don't speak like that - it is too formal. The rules of grammar can only seep into your brain if you read.

I was given spellings and times tables every week, with a test on friday. I never learnt them, I simply couldn't be bothered and my parents never forced the issue - despite both being academic people and teachers themselves.

So I still don't know my times tables and my spelling is ok, but I think only because I happened to love reading a lot. I ended up with a 1st class BA and an MA which I got a scholarship to do....learning spellings by rote doesn't work for everyone!

I left secondary school in 97 so my lack of spelling and times table education has nothing to do with labour!

People in their mid 20s now were already at secondary school by the time Labour came in - I don't think literacy levels amongst people applying for jobs can be blamed on Labour!

Activate

I'm curious .....

a child pulling a level 7 in English

This may be perfectly grammatically correct English, but to me there are at least 2 interpretations:

a child pulling 'A'-level 7 in English

a child [having obtained a grade] 7 in English

Unfortunately, I still don't understand, whichever interpretation applies (is level 7 good ?).

How do you grade your piece ? :o

But adults can be as bad.
They often say 'oh I don't have time to read.'

It's not something they enjoy. It's not something they model as being fun to their children.
It's not something they place any value on by their own actions.

So you gets what you deserves.

you know these dc who are switching on the telly first thing in the morning, coming home from school and switching on the telly or playing with electronic gadgets, how are they going to be helped if it is up to the parents?

No amount of berating the parents is likely to change much, is it? There will be some parents who can be moved to intervene and change some of those habits but the ones you need to reach most probably aren't open to the message. Am I right? So if it is down to parental involvement and reading at home, these dc are just going to fail.

cumfy

I used a colloquialism, 'tis true!

I am talking of a start of year 8 child who has achieved a level 7 in English based on teacher assesment by end of year 7 (don't recall subgrade I'm afraid). This is considered a good grade at this stage and yet this same child cannot differentiate between 'are' and 'our'

"a level" as opposed to A' Level

the school alone has to be sufficient to help these dc because honestly otherwise they are just not going to get there. All our dc need to have as equal a chance in life as we can give them (and we are so far from giving them an equal chance it is almost a joke) and they cannot have it if their educational attainment, general literacy is so dependent on what their parents do.

IMO

U r bean UnReesnobble n u no itt! lolz

Level 7 in English is

Pupils are confident in matching their talk to the demands of different contexts, including those that are unfamiliar. They use vocabulary in precise and creative ways and organise their talk to communicate clearly. They make significant contributions to discussions, evaluating others? ideas and varying how and when they participate. They use standard English confidently in situations that require it.

I heard a writer say once that in their opinion the benchmark of literacy was a person being able to speak as they write - in properly constructed, logical, complex sentences, able to develop an easy to follow train of thought which makes sense for their listener, if their audience requires it. So that would mean a job interview, or complaining effectively, or debating for example. Being able to write properly leads to this.

When I used to talk about "writing" during parents' evenings, many of them used to assume I meant handwriting.

Oh Alpine you are awful

And

Pupils show understanding of the ways in which meaning and information are conveyed in a range of texts. They articulate personal and critical responses to poems, plays and novels, showing awareness of their thematic, structural and linguistic features. They understand why some texts are particularly valued and influential. They select, synthesise and compare information from a variety of sources.

And

Pupils? writing is confident and shows appropriate and imaginative choices of style in a range of forms. Characters and settings are developed in their narrative writing. Their non-fiction writing is coherent and gives clear points of view, taking account of different perspectives. Grammatical features and vocabulary are used accurately and effectively. Spelling is correct, including that of complex irregular words. Work is legible and attractively presented. Paragraphing and correct punctuation are used to make the sequence of events or ideas coherent and clear to the reader.

so no basic grammar and spelling basis then Prof?

ignore me - I skim read that and totally missed "Grammatical features and vocabulary are used accurately and effectively. Spelling is correct, including that of complex irregular words"

not true though is it?