Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder what's so heroic about being in the British army?

519 replies

poppylongstocking · 22/11/2010 19:25

Both my brother in laws are in the army and spend 6 months at a time away from their wife & kids in a country we are under no direct threat from fighting a war which was started on dubious grounds. They are risking their lives, yes, but I don't see it as heroic, I see it as a bit stupid to be honest. I could understand the label 'hero' if we were under direct threat and having our homes bombed as in WW2, but it's very different nowadays, aibu?

OP posts:
gemmummy · 23/11/2010 22:54

hey monster, where are you based?

monsterchops · 23/11/2010 22:55

Lovely Brize Wink

gemmummy · 23/11/2010 22:56

lol me too!

LeQueen · 23/11/2010 22:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

monsterchops · 23/11/2010 23:00

and don't we live the life in our lovely houses and quiet surroundings Smile

CraigRevelPan · 23/11/2010 23:03

LeQ - there is no correct spelling of Taliban in English - it's transcribed as a sort phonetic. Taleban is just as credible.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 23/11/2010 23:09

Gemmamummy - that seems extremely unlikely. Some will have been unlucky. Some may have been stupid. Some were killed in aircraft crashes as a result of old equipment and poor maintenance. Some may have been doing something heroic.

gemmummy · 23/11/2010 23:12

Nope, anyone, in my mind that has died for their country, whether in an rta, or poor equip, or going into a burning building to rescue a family, or trying to arrest a bad person, is a Hero. Because they have died for their country, to me, that makes them heroic. I know not everyone shares this view, but that's the way I feel.

gemmummy · 23/11/2010 23:13

Off to bed now, but will revisit in the morning as I am interested in the issues this thread has raised.

sunshineriver · 23/11/2010 23:21

I think, ultimately, that what the OP should have read was:

AIBU to not like what the armed forces has become that it is now a load of people that we know going off to countries that we'd never heard of until all of this terrorist shit kicked off, rather than it being something that happened to our Grandparents and had no direct emotional ties with. Now that it is happening to people in my own family and I have to see the effect that it is having on my sisters knowing that their beloved DHs may not come home again makes me realise how awful war is and I do not like it and wish that things were different. I think maybe that if we were at war like we used to read about and it felt like my, and my children's lives were in immediate danger like during WW2 and we were putting our kids on trains up to the countryside, I may understand it more, but it does not seem fair that our armed forces are abroad fighting a war that we didn't start and the only times that we hear about it is when we are told about yet more soldiers killed in action.

So, am I being unreasonable...?

Just my take, but I think something along those lines would have made a better OP rather than inadvertantly pissing a lot of MNers off

Vallhala · 23/11/2010 23:27

I gave up when someone felt the need to translate the Latin for us. Hmm

LoopyLoops · 23/11/2010 23:33

I haven't read the whole thread, just a couple of pages, and there are already a lot of things I'd like to comment on, but must go to bed, so just this one question:

Most posts seem to be saying that a soldier is a hero because they are prepared to die for their cause.
If this is the case, are terrorists, suicide bombers, the Taliban, Al Quaeda etc. all heros? Or just the ones on our side?

seeker · 23/11/2010 23:55

This man is a hero. Using the word indiscriminately to describe all members of the armed forces is an insult to him and others like him.

dizzyblonde · 24/11/2010 00:04

Have not read all the thread but to me a hero is someome who knows the danger they face but still goes back. God bless them all and bring them back safe.I speak as a member of the emergency services.

slhilly · 24/11/2010 00:56

TCNY, you asked for references -- for which assertions?

LtEve the reason why I thought your comment might be aimed at me is because one of your previous comments was, I responded directly to you, and you then posted on a related topic. So it was less about ego and more about a not-exactly-surprising logical chain. Hey ho, it gave you the chance for another ad hominem attack. You say that being involved in the war gives members of the armed forces and those who know them well a materially better understanding of Afghanistan. I think the very personal involvement makes it very difficult to maintain sufficient distance to conduct dispassionate analysis. It's not a lack of detailed facts about specific deployments eg whether to have a FOB here or there -- that's at issue: it's whether the whole effort is beneficial or not, to us and to the Afghans. That requires a net calculation: no point in just counting the positives or just the negatives. So talking about defusing IEDs, as others have done, rather misses the point that the IEDs were only planted because we were there. Talking about the abuse of women under the Taleban in pre-invasion days must be weighed up against the fact that many Afghan women still live under Taleban rule, many others live under harsh and bigoted non-Taleban rule, and the Afghan government itself has instituted all sorts of misogyny of its own: there's probably a net benefit, but it's not enormous and other approaches, especially direct economic support for women through eg microloans, seem perfectly plausible alternatives and don't have the advantage of having to kill everyone.

You asked "how could I know that not one of the reasons for going to war in Afghanistan is valid, if I don't know all the reasons"? Because not one of them could conceivably involve an existential threat to the UK, and that's the only reason that's valid. As I said earlier, the Afghan war has destabilised Pakistan, which is really bad news as that state could conceivably pose an existential threat to us, given the volatile mix of Islamists and nuclear weapons.

Ididthisforus: "One recurring theme seems to be that we are more at risk because our Forces are, for want of a better phrase, occupying, another country. Are the holders of this belief really that naive to think that the Taliban, or any fundamentalist terrorist organisation for that matter, would not class Britain as a target if we weren't in Afghanistan? On the contrary, we are a target by virtue of the fact that this country does not live by their fundamentalist beliefs, as is any other democratic society with the freedom of choice."
This is arguing with a strawman. I don't know of anyone who thinks we wouldn't anyway be a target if we hadn't invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. However, lots of us think the invasions were counterproductive because we're more of a target: there's lots more angry people out there with a grudge against us. Additionally, what I believe is that it is a scandalous waste of resources to deploy military forces to combat terrorism. It's the wrong tool for the job. Armed forces are to deal with existential threats, which terrorism is not. Terrorism can be better tackled through other means, as I posted upthread.

LeQueen -- weird comment re Wilfred Owen, possibly the most famous British poet of all time to express doubts about the wisdom of war. Even weirder comment about spelling: Taliban / Taleban are English transliterations of an Arabic word. There is no standardised transliteration of Arabic words in English: Mecca and Makkah are both valid, for example. Your assuming of the intellectual high-ground on this point has just left your arse hanging out, frankly.

kettlecrisps · 24/11/2010 01:00

It is a great, great luxury to sit in judgment of whether soldiers are heroes are not.

My granddad signed up for TA (like lots of other men at the time) three years before WW2 not because they loved war but they knew it was their duty to stand up and be counted.

I have just as much respect for soldiers nowadays as I did for my granddad.

Loopyloops - name suits you very well.

Suggesting a suicide bomber could also be considered a hero if we count being committed to die for what you believe in. Tosh. It's not what's believed in that counts it's whether it is for the Greater Good (casualties included). If you think suicide bombers could be considered heroes then lets put in the serial killers? They obviously think it the right thing to do and consider they're tidying up the area after all?

Oh lucky people to wonder about the futility of war. A luxury afforded us by so many people and generations before us.

Davey Arthur & The Fuerys (an Irish group) have a very moving folk song about World War 1 - can't remember the name - about a soldier called Young Willie McBride. You feel the futility of what he died for yet at the same time know but for these people our lives would be very different.

kettlecrisps · 24/11/2010 01:10

Expressing doubts about the wisdom of war is at the heart of any war. No-one goes into wars thinking its a wonderful idea it is something to be weighed up against the alternatives.

Look at the German population during the build up to WW2 - do you think if maybe they'd expressed doubts and stood up against what apparently after the war they all felt was wrong things could have been different.

People standing up for what is right not what they want is the bitter pill of war.

Poets and songs about war are extremely moving for this reason - at the heart of war is suffering for EVERYONE involved - but what's the alternative? If WW2 hadn't started then what more would having been happening re. extermination camps etc.

It's all very well thinking oh let's all just get along like nice chaps and not have these silly wars. That's assuming your enemy's a nice chap. Funny enough they're usually people where there's no reasoning with them!

So roll over and get kicked or stand up for what's right. Lucky enough for all the objectors there's enough people ready to stand up so they can sit there pontificating and feeling morally superior.

NetworkGuy · 24/11/2010 04:13

Insensitive, crass, and asking to be "shot down in flames" making a thread like this in AIBU, OP, though I do understand where you are coming from.

"He told her himself that he knew what he was getting into but she wouldn't have it."

When I see teenagers in camouflage gear collecting money at the local supermarkets I truly wonder at whether they "know what they are getting into" and whether any have lost relatives. I agree that both campaigns are for dubious reasons, and while some drugs come from Afghanistan, I doubt British criminals import solely from there (to challenge some other post).

I suppose we should be glad that the adverts for the Army have changed over recent years, but it is not that long ago when the ads on TV showed service men going off to Canada and other places making it look like training involved 'adventure camp', and to boot you were given board and lodgings and paid to have a fun time (I know, not "given free", but it was the impression from those adverts!)

I still think that some teenage lad (or lass) aged around 17/18 is too immature to make a life changing decision to go into an armed force and possibly be in a combat situation within a matter of months. Now, they should realise the gravity (but for a lad who might have been playing shoot-em-ups on his XBox 360 or PS2/PS3 the grim reality may be a million miles away in his conscience, and the adrenaline pumping makes him "ready to go").

Fighting for "Queen and country" might be the banner, but it is still for dubious reasons. The biggest problem I have is that where promises of rebuilding infrastructure have been made, in many cases these have yet to be fulfilled. More is spent on the weapons than the men and women (let alone aid for the innocent civilians left behind) and we delude ourselves with thoughts of "winning hearts and minds" when someone who has been receiving training from the British forces on the ground then turns up one morning and shoots the people who were previously close to being "colleagues".

Wars over hundreds of years have failed to beat Afghan fighters, and there are no doubt just as many dedicated warmongers in Iraq to continue to make it dangerous until some strict government gets into power.

I cannot have anything but respect for troops over there, however, I wish they were not there, to be honest.

madwomanintheattic · 24/11/2010 05:11

NetworkGuy - i currently live in one of those 'adventure camps' - the same one that dh got blown up in eight years ago. it's about -30 today Grin

anyway, neither dh (despite his brain injury and scars) nor i are heroes. both serving or ex-military. oh, and my first degree involved comparing the nature of 'heroism' from the ancient greeks courtesy of homer (lol) via a bit of wilf (bigger lol) through to the twentieth century. (i'm quite old and we hadn't got as far as the 21st...)

am loving the thread, op. Hmm

i'm unsure of whether to be more offended by 'thick' or 'thugs' more though, so feel unable to contribute much.

tbh, i don't particularly support sending troops to either iraq or afghanistan, but as lteve notes, sometimes you have to trust that the people making the decisions are privy to more than you are.

it didn't stop me fulfilling a busy recruting role though. or a drafting role picking the people (mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters) to send on ops. or helping them through the welfare system on their return.

i'm actually all for questioning - i think those of you suggesting that the armed forces waltz around demanding hero-worship, and trying to gag those who question the validity of current ops are quite quite wrong. the demos at wootton bassett were quite clearly supported as free speech by the military, despite the fact that the demonstrators were violent and abusive.

anyway, not getting involved. tis aibu at the very worst, and deliberately inflammatory.

i support your right to make such an ill-informed post, op. you are quite right - life is no picnic for a military spouse. but better you find a way to support your extended family that does not involve attacking specific members of it.

NetworkGuy · 24/11/2010 05:40

I hope I didn't offend, madwomanintheattic, mentioning "adventure camps" (I remember ads showing jungle trips, and Canadian snowskapes, over the years, and the message was something like 'join the Army and see the world' [though some ads might have been for other services]).

Where are you, might I ask, given the low temperature ? West coast of Canada ? (Time of post and temperature suggest it, unless you are in Antarctica, of course!)

Animation · 24/11/2010 05:40

Sunshineriver.

Good call. I would have agreed with an OP worded as you say.

NetworkGuy · 24/11/2010 05:44

I should have written "conscious" not "conscience" earlier, in case anyone picks up on it...

madwomanintheattic · 24/11/2010 05:47

it is dark though Grin
canada. it's chuffing cold (-40 last night) and i knackered the transmission on the car this morning as a result. someone suggested i light a fire under the vehicle to warm it up to see if that helped. i decided i'd just cadge a lift to work instead and left my car abandoned in the road.

might as well be blardy antartica. Grin

i'm not easily offended - i usually opt for the 'people are so interesting, i wonder what makes them think that, when they are so clearly wrong?' approach Wink

madwomanintheattic · 24/11/2010 05:50

although 'join the army/ raf/ insert appropriate service and see the world' is oft quoted by those pitching up at brize lol.

as is 'just like any other job.... but with wings on.' Grin)

LtEveDallas · 24/11/2010 05:53

Madwoman lol

(a close friend was posted from Cyprus to Canada a few years ago. In Nov. She went from +23 to -30 almost overnight. What a shock to the System!)