to think most would not really want a secondary modern

[inkyfingers]

OK, tell me why the 'grammar school system' is good for the 85% who don't get a place? I love the pace and challenge etc the GS offers (as many MNers tell me), but how does the alternative serve the huge majority of pupils? (cos surely a 'system' has to benefit as many as possible??).

If it's a really good wheeze, then the GS supporters would surely be happy if their own DC don't get places?

We don't have any students who do not take any GCSEs, we let all of our students take GCSEs and some of them will get a G grade. As you say we also have students who will only get a coupleof Cs. That won't happen at a grammar as they wil not accept pupils of that ability range.

If our grammar school was better I would consider it for my dd, as I said I have worked in one in the past. I would never assume however that just because a school is a grammar or independent it is better than the local comp.

It started that way LeQueen but something that has been happening recently is that students doing A Levels who live in our catchment are coming back to us. When they were in year 7 we were not meeting the standards that we do now so they chose the grammar option. We are a different school now.

My dd is very strong academically and has a real drive to learn, she would be better off at the comp I teach in. ( Ironically we do not live in catchment). My top sets are full of academically strong children who have a drive to learn.

waterloo- I think that your area must be unique, where I live the grammar school is lightyears ahead of all the comprehensives

Not in the whole of our top set no, although some will be.

I am sure I heard of a grammar going into special meaures, in the north west I think. I am not claiming that we could compete with the best grammars in the country although we would like a go - . As I said before I think each school should be judged on its merits not its title.

We are a state comp, a top set of 6 is never going to happen. Our top sets are between 25 and 30. So if the top set in the grammar is 6 students I doubt ours will be working at the same rate or getting the same level of attention lesson in and lesson out.

No offence taken Le Queen. We regularly get creamed in rugby by the grammar so we could cope! As I said as grammars go the local ones are not great, I have taught in a better grammar myself.

An excellent school is about what happens in classrooms not the title for the school.

I can only talk about my classroom as that is what I know about. Admittedly I do not teach Maths, English or science so my GCSE classes are smaller - at the moment I have 19 in year 11, 13 in year 12 and 5 in year 13. But no student is held back.

I would like to see smaller class sizes though so I do not disagree with you about the power of a small class.

I am not arguing with that point, that is why I spend every lunch time and time after school every evening running extra classes for small groups. Those very motivated very able students are not held back. I guess if they are not overly motivated they would do better in a grammar. Infact if I had a very bright but unmotivated child I probably would send them to a grammar - even the local ones if they have such small classes.

I would love to teach smaller classes, not least because it takes fewer man hours.

Anyway I must get to bed as I am taking some of my more motivated students on a trip in the morning.

The idea that the brightest children are held back in comprehensives simply isn't borne out by the statistics - on the whole bright middle class kids with motivated parents will do well wherever they go to school.

The most important factor in determining the achievement of a particular school should really be the cva which measures how much value has been added to a particular student. This really should be what a parent should be interested in as it shows how well their child is likely to do in comparison between schools. Many comprehensives (like the one Waterloo is describing or like Mossborne Academy in Hackney) have a cva which is far higher than many grammar schools but that gets buried under headline figures which are really not that illuminating.

Yes, leQueen, but by definition that education is only available for a minority. A minority that is overwhelmingly middle class and better off. Hence it's unfair to everyone else.

edam- is that not availible to the brightest pupils (of which a lot will be middle class but it isn't middle class only)