to think most would not really want a secondary modern

[inkyfingers]

OK, tell me why the 'grammar school system' is good for the 85% who don't get a place? I love the pace and challenge etc the GS offers (as many MNers tell me), but how does the alternative serve the huge majority of pupils? (cos surely a 'system' has to benefit as many as possible??).

If it's a really good wheeze, then the GS supporters would surely be happy if their own DC don't get places?

`I disagree as well Riven. My children are very much above average in intelligence, yet at 11 2 of them very much lacked the maturity to do well in a bear pit. The middle one of the three older ones would have been fine anywhere. In retrospect I should have kept my oldest out of school- it has never suited him until maybe the last 2-3 years and he's in Upper 6th now.

Yeah wiv gowns and all sorts.
We have two puddings - one called pudding and one called dessert a la Mrs Beeton. Only dessert is fruit.
Sometimes you 'av to wash your hands before pudding in a silver salver donated in the 18th century at my mate's college.
Vat's how clevver people eat.

Never sit near the nemotode people though, they put you right off your pate.

the kind of formal i used to attend involved drinking two bottles of vino before heading to the bar...

Sometimes Hully
Human beings are complex beings and there are many variables.

For example, even the letter of the alphabet a child's surname begins with has an impact of their education.

And how tall they are.

And what month they are born in (as we know).

And birth order.

And whether their teacher gets cross with them more than other kids because they remind their teacher of someone else he/she doesn't like.

I could go on. If education was easy, we'd have fixed it.

Hmmmm.

Sadly, one could equally say that if all were born with equal ability we wouldn't need to.

I cannot deny the evidence of my own yeux and experience dans le classroom.

I am of the mindset that people fuss too much about intelligence. I used to make a point of doing reverse labelling, i.e. telling all my pupils privately one by one that I was pleasantly impressed with how music they were and how well they were doing. I got a massive amount of them through music exams and GCSE with excellent marks. It's all about belief IMO. Most people can learn most stuff at school level given the right set of circumstances.

I also used to act out the GCSE set works with actions according to the instrument or mood or whatever, and jump up and down every time we had to remember something the would impress examiners.

Sergeant Pepper was particularly good fun ....

Plus teaching bright kids can be a mite boring. Where's the challenge in that?

I would agree with that. If my dc have trouble remembering an important fact/thing, I leap out from behind a door and yell it at them, they don't forget it. Also, make them do things standing on one leg, or with star jumps, more entertaining too.

I also agree most people can learn most things etc - but it still doesn't change that some people are faster at some stuff than others. Whether or not it matters is a different question.

It doesn't matter at school IMO.

Plus there's this very silly myth that high IQ means you are somehow capable of being good at everything all the time, whereas the reality it so often that people are good at some things and not others.

I couldn't work out how to strip a computer down and overclock a chip until I was surrounded by other people doing it, for example. Then it all started to make sense. However I remember looking at a ZX81 and being none the wiser, as none of my mates was into that sort of thing.

TBH a lot of learning is culturally inspired. That's why DS1 knew every single Pokemon at one time but still couldn't remember his tables.

[PrematureEjoculation Sun 21-Nov-10 17:27:11

ways kids help each other...

1. giving them the answer
2. doing the work for them
3. solidarity ie saying 'i can't do it either'

none of which helps anyone in the exam room...]

My Ds used to be set to helping other children in Maths in Yrs 1 and 2. He used to explain properly how to work things out, using fingers, reminding them of their number bonds, pointing out the hundreds, tens and units etc. Other children's parents reported this back to me.

By the time you get to secondary school though, I think each child should be working at their own pace in each subject, so I favour comprehensives, streamed by subject.

BoffinMum: Do you really think most people can learn most stuff at school given the right circumstances???

I suppose it must be true to an extent on account of the TimNiceButDims who come out with strings of As from the private sector, but, if so, why not from the local comp as well??

I think it matters at school. Even in Yr 2 there were three groups of kids: one couldn't read and write at all, one was middling and one was galloping along. The gallopers were bored as they were mainly left to get on with it, the middlers were ok as they got most of the attention and three guesses what the last lot did. Each group needed full and individual attention which simply wasn't available.

ability makes a difference - but so does teaching.

i am no good at football, for instance, but i'm sure i could get better with tuition. i'd never be Premiership though.

a bright kid at a shit school may do ok, but doesn't mean that they wouldn't have done significantly better at a good one. probably they would.

my parents took the attitude i would do ok anywhere, however from what i saw at the high schools i went to, how i did was affected by the quality of the school, the learning culture, the teachers expectations. It is hard to try and learn to a high level when you are surrounded by kids that don't want to, or get picked on for being a 'know it all', or when the teacher accepts anything you do over C grade.

choccypig i'm sure your little boy is a model of patience, however 11 year olds are eleven year olds....not angels! I suppose that such a notion sounds good in theory, but the reality of it is it will depend greatly on the kids in question - and i think that level of maturity is quite a big ask.

as you agree with me about secondary, i don't need to point out that you'd be livid if he was struggling to get the necessary gcses for A level entry and UCAS whilst helping others in this way.

I don't just think so, I know so.

If kids shut up for five minutes in the classroom it is also possible to teach different ability ranges at once without too many problems. However many teachers are over timetabled and haven't got enough preparation time to get the right materials and energy together in order to do this.

These are the problems we have, not any major lack of intelligence on the part of the kids.

Also, BoffinMum, getting pupils through music GSCE with excellent marks through 'belief' is perhaps because GCSEs aren't very hard??? My DN who did bugger all for his GCSEs managed an A* at music GCSE.

No, they are not that hard.
So we should be disgusted if kids are struggling with them after 12 years of full time education.

Yes, absolutely agree.

But if children are struggling, maybe that's because some children aren't as 'bright' (or whatever terminology is used)as others regardless of the teaching they have received.

BTW am genuinely interested in this, as I really do think that some children are not as able as others.

I teach students who no matter how hard they or I work will never achieve an A*

Most DCs are average-that is what it means -(even MNetters DCs!) Some are above and some are below. If you start every DC off at the same point, where they know nothing, you will after a few days find they are all at different stages. Grammar schools are selective and they are not looking for the average DC.