to think most would not really want a secondary modern

[inkyfingers]

OK, tell me why the 'grammar school system' is good for the 85% who don't get a place? I love the pace and challenge etc the GS offers (as many MNers tell me), but how does the alternative serve the huge majority of pupils? (cos surely a 'system' has to benefit as many as possible??).

If it's a really good wheeze, then the GS supporters would surely be happy if their own DC don't get places?

Its a problem because only the rich and middle class get that advantage, therefore it is not a fair intelligence test.

I have never once met a ten year old that has taught themselves VR technique at home alone without any support.

ALL working class parents dont help their kids learn?

really?
interesting

Yes because they are all drunk in the stairwell, lolling about in mounds of Tennants Super

"ALL working class parents dont help their kids learn"
who said this

amazing the amount of very recent immigrant kids who get into the Birmingham ones

you said only rich kids get the advantage of...( presume eithe parental support or tutoring)

I do believe that some thinking about intelligence is out of date and inaccurate. I do believe that mind's are expandable and intelligence learnable to a degree.

Even Alfred Binet the founder of IQ didn't believe intelligence was fixed or unitary. He was worried his tests might be used to support the 'brutal pessimism' of fixed intelligence and was worried people might fall into this trap.

Question for you LeQueen. Do you believe intelligence is essentially a one dimensional commodity largely to be found in the kinds of thinking required by IQ tests?

Ignoring the hyperbole above Fred, do you really think the educational system is meritocratic?

I said the rich and middle class have an advantage because they are more likely to be able to afford a tutor. I don't recall saying anything offensive about people on a low income.

you dont NEED to pay anyone to go through algebra

No but if your parents don't understand it (not suggesting that this would only happen if they are working class before you put words into my mouth again) and your school is not allowed to help it would give you an advantage if you did.

Fred, a quick literature search on a database will provide a list of papers that demonstrate the link between parental income and educational attainment of the children.

If you're saying that children from poorer backgrounds are just naturally less intelligent, there's something else going on here.

Just to quote one

"The Declining Relative Importance of Ability in Predicting Educational Attainment
Fernando Galindo-Rueda and Anna Vignoles

Most countries seek to reduce inequality by encouraging educational attainment, particularly by striving for better outcomes for able individuals from poor backgrounds. We analyse whether this has been a feature of Britain?s substantial expansion of education during the past several decades. We use two unique longitudinal studies to test whether these improvements have been associated with changes in the role of cognitive ability and parental background in determining educational achievement. We find a decline in the importance of ability in explaining educational performance, in part because low ability children with high economic status experienced the largest increases in educational attainment.

yes they are!
schools do offer 11 plus help
have you had kids do it?

So, assuming the pass mark is 120. One child who has had private tuition for a year scores 120 and another child with no tuition scores 119 and fails. Never mind, the child who has failed can just move on and do something artisan with their lives and everyone lives happily ever after. Really?
I like comprehensive schools where the children are taught in sets for each subject - not streams. Depending on how they are working they can be moved up or down a set so that they will be working at the correct pace. Thank goodness my DDs attend such a school.

Yes, I have and where I live they are not allowed to assist in preparation for the exam. Also, I am from a working class background myself and would never suggest that the working class are feckless.

well that is unique to your area then!

Missanne I agree

Same in my area and three others that I know of.

I don't think so.

I like RitaLynn's idea on the last page of testing babies in the womb for intelligence. I'd go with that. You can't possibly argue that someone's had an "off day" before they're even born.

Also - what if grammar schools were for a tiny minority only? Then there would be a school for a super elite of incredibly brainy children, and there would be no question of those who had been coached beyond their real level or who just fell in the middle passing the test.

If one knew that, say, only 60 children in the whole county were deemed to be academically suited to a grammar school, then I'm sure that people would be more inclined to accept their lot.

Youll HAVE to believe me! its not the case here.

what if there's selection for outstanding schools for the academically weaker? clamouring for those?

as less people go to uni itl be less important what school you went to anyway.

Being bright dousnt make you successful, happy or a good person.

We need to stop feeding all this crap into our children that the way to do well is to gets a`s and go to uni. It isnt, personal development growth and maturity are