for wanting school to be tougher with DS?

[peppapighastakenovermylife]

DS is four and in reception. He is a lovely boy - confident and very sociable - but certainly has an impulsive streak and is very energetic.

At home we have learnt to be tough with him. I don't mean screaming and shouting at him but certainly removing priviledges, toys, time out etc works very well for him. We are consistent with him - he gets warned then if he doesnt listen it happens. With this approach he is lovely at home, if not a normal bouncy four year old boy.

In school however it is a different story. He is consistently pushing boundaries there. He is not vindictive or aggressive but being a stereotypical boy - very bouncy, won't keep still, climbing things etc. School have called me in a couple of times to talk to me about this.

I have asked them how they are dealing with it. They say that their approach is to ignore the negative and praise the positive. Now I'm sure this works well for some children but surely others need a firmer approach? As far as DS is concerned there is little comeback for his actions. Ok so he doesnt get any attention from the teachers from it but he also doesnt get a negative reaction or even really told it is wrong. I don't think it is 'worth' him stopping these behaviours. I am not sure he even realises these things are 'wrong' half the time because they are not being firm enough with him. When they tell me the specifics and I firmly and clearly tell him these behaviours are not on and I will punish him for it, he stops doing them in school.

I have suggested this to the teachers but they seem convinced their approach is right and that actively punishing him or being firmer with him is wrong. He was never like this in private nursery - his teacher there who was a trained nursery teacher was very firm with the more energetic children and she had the group controlled perfectly.

So AIBU here? Should they carry on with their praise the positive ignore the negative or can I ask more firmly for them to be stricter with him? He is confused about what behaviour is expected, they are frustrated at him not following rules and I am upset that he is being labelled as the naughty child.

I don't think you are BU.

I suppose I'd wait till the next time I was called in to talk about it, and say "I have told you how WE deal with his bad behaviour, and he now behaves well at home. Last time I told you about it, you said you wanted to do it your way. And now you have called me in again. What do you want me to do?"

yanbu. I have a very charming 5yo ds who is quite bright but do the school see that? No, because he very charmingly convinces his teachers that he is still a baby and cannot do a lot of things.

So parents evening was spent suggesting to the teachers that they need to raise their expectations of him.

All I can suggest is that you point out to them that he is not like this at home, therefore they are not doing something right.
I dont really know the answer. I do know that some kids given an inch will take a mile. just the wish the teachers could see this.

interesting. i have an 'energetic' just 5b year old. We did the same as you, didnt work, made him a lot worse.

At school they did' praise the good, ignore the bad' and he has never played up there so we decided to adopt this approach!

In your situation how about explaining the rules of school more clearly to him, get the teacher to go over the things that matter and explain them again to him,

I think him may get singled out more if they treat him differently than the other children.

Ignoring the negative and praising the positive CAN work - sometimes you still need a sanction too! (Any teacher who insists otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land really)

On the other hand you can be damned if you do and damned if you don't with teaching - if they DO get stricter then there'll be threads on here about how "they're only little children and they shouldn't be punished" (punishment generally being a couple of minutes time out in a thinking spot/chair/corner). Personally I'd be biting your hand off at the fact you have things that DO work and you're happy for the school to implement them - cos it's a damn sight improvement over "oh he's fine at home and we don't want any negative sanctions used ever in school" in terms of helpfulness. I don't THINK I'm that much of an educational dinosaur - I just refuse to blindly follow the latest fad without justification that it works (and I was a little sod at school who DEFINITELY needed boundaries!).

Thinking on, I suppose they could do a sticker chart and then you do the punishment bit if he comes out at the end of the school day without enough smiley faces. Maybe they haven't got time for time outs, or there aren't privileges they can remove?

Time outs aren't usually a problem - worst comes to the worst you nick a rubber spot from the PE cupboard and have it in the classroom cupboard ready for sitting on if time out's required. There's usually sandtimers lying around from numeracy anyway - job done!

Might be worth requesting some kind of smiley face chart for during the day so you can follow up at home if you're really concerned and they're being too wet and yoghurt-knitty for your needs.

Biggest deterrent when I was at school btw wasn't anything the school could do to me (I genuinely didn't care) - it was the wrath of mother I'd get when I got home!

I agree, in essence with balloonslayer, I think you need to make the point that they spoke to you about it, you advised what works, they said they didn't want to do that.

D

Praising the positive is good,ignoring the bad? Not sure on that one. Surely a child needs to learn when he has done wrong. I agree that ignoring attention seeking often works well but not all naughtiness is attention seeking. I would want the same for my children. It is tough for teachers here in the UK and personally I would not want to teach over here.

I've also found out (the hard way) that ignoring the negative and praising the positive doesn't work with some children (my first) and does with others (my second). As you say, some children find ignoring doesn't give them the information they need, or worse, they escalate their behaviour to attract attention (and there's a few tried and tested methods which will do that ranging from biting, hitting, being rude) where they then HAVE to intervene. So, YANBU, but it may be that you have to carry on as the one that explains what is appropriate behaviour in the class. And, soon enough he'll come across a teacher who won't stand for any nonsense and won't be saying 'well done, Kevin for going a whole ten minutes without punching someone!' in a bright and brittle voice, and he'll understand the boundaries better. Carrot and stick every time for me!

We had a similar problem with DS when he started school. He has always insisted on testing the boundries of the person who is caring for him (even at nursery when their was a new member of staff). His favourite people are always the ones who are firmer with him.

Luckily, we have a great teacher who is firm with him although the school have a policy of ignoring negative behaviour. As a working mum, I don't get to see the teacher very often so we agreed she would put a note in DS lunchbox if he behaved particularly badly.

We have had one note. Imagine the shocked face when I casually said while DS was having tea 'I had a call from Miss N today about how you behaved in school...'.

He now knows that Miss N might phone Mummy if he doesn't listen at school and Mummy will put a black cross on his chart. Not had a note since! (We deliberately told him she phoned as we didn't want him to take the notes out!!). Miss N has confirmed that since then she doesn't have to count past 2 before he starts to listen.

Maybe you can ask the teacher to let you know what is going on so you can deal with it your way?

Thank you. Just want to say I am not complaining about the teacher in any way just wondering if it is ok really to be a bit firmer in suggesting how he is dealt with? I certainly don't think he is some little angel who shouldnt be punished - far from it

He is just one of those children who respond well to firm direction. He reacts well to someone getting a bit cross with him rather than getting upset with it if that makes sense? DD on the other hand is very different and dissolves into a heap on the floor if you get annoyed with her.

I think by ignoring the negative he is not understanding that it is wrong. I was wondering about them drawing him up a list of rules he needs to follow eg no talking in assembly, no jumping about when lining up etc and then reminding him of them quite frequently. He doesnt want to be naughty just doesnt quite see the impact I dont think.

I am also grateful he doesnt have 'bad' behaviour eg he would never bite, hit or be rude - just is too energetic for the classroom.

Emptyshell - can he come to your class please? You sound just right

Onetoomany - exactly! I can just see them talking to him like that. He needs boundaries.

He is pretty bright as well which is exacerbating this. He did a lot in nursery and everything they are doing with him work wise is a few steps below what he can already do so I think he is a bit bored which doesnt help matters.

Poogles they are letting us know but the problem is that DS doesnt seem to realise at the end of the day what he has done wrong and seems genuinely shocked when I ask why he had such a bad day!

I explain to him that he musn't do whatever...but I think he really needs someone there at the time telling him as he seems to forget when it is just me telling him out of context.

Your ds is only four, and some four year olds genuinely find it very very dificult to calm down and not be boistrous. I work in a pre school, and my boss once told me that she had read some reaserch which suggests that children that behave in the way that you describe your ds are going through a stage of development where their nervous system is just so active that it is actually bad for them to have to be still and quiet for long periods of time. I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable and qualified than me can come along and explaine this better. What I'm trying to say is that your ds is not making a clear cut choice over whther to behave or not. If his body is telling him to move then it's going to be very hard for him not to. It might be easier at home because he is less restricted in the positions he has to sit in, the length of time he has to stay still for etc. His body may simply not be ready for what is being expected of it. That's not to say that there is anything at all wrong with his development, I don't mean that at all so I hope I don't come across like that, but as we all know, children develop totally differently all within a completely normal range.

However children of four are old enough to learn that there are two sets of rules, one for home, one for school, even another for when they are at Grandmas.

When we have children like this at pre school we provide the child with something to fiddle with so that their hands are occupied, and this can mean that they are more able to listen and concentrate on what is going on around them. We use things like little plastic springs, those wiggle things that they can twist into different shapes. Hawkins Bazzar sell little strips of that stuff that is used to cover up cables as a fiddle toy.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across very well here, but I promise, I do know what I'm talking about! I think suggesting a fiddle toy to the school would definatley be worth a try.

Curlymama - I agree. At home he doesnt have to sit for long periods of time. At weekends we make the effort to get out and about with him and he thrives running about in the park or at the beach. He isn't 'naughty' just energetic which unfortunately translates into naughty in many school settings.

Really interesting idea about the fiddle toy. I will have a look at them. If he is interested in something or working on something challenging he is fine! Sticking bits of paper on a number...he just isn't interested!

Try not to worry too much. If he is bright, a lot o fthis may be related to him not being challenged enough. We had same problem with DS at start of term as he had higher expectations of school! Once they started more structured learning he calmed down a lot.

I also agree that some children need an explanation of why their behaviour is not acceptable i.e. tlaking in assembly - the school should be explaining the importance of listening.

Also yes I agree with the different rules - just dont think they are communicating these rules to him particularly well.

I'm so glad you can see where I'm coming from!

It drives me slightly mental that at pre school we work so hard to combat any problems like this, we treat children as the individuals that they are and realise that any 'bad' behaviour is mostly either learned, or a perfectly natural stage of development. Then they go off to big school and are things that they are simply not ready for are expected of them, and as you said, can easily be labelled as 'naughty' when they don't conform in the robot like fashion that school teachers expect.

I would ask the teacher to sit down with ds (and you?) and go through teh expected behaviour in the classroom. A very simple "these are accepted behaviours, these are not" then, when he engages in unacceptable behaviour she can simply say to him "is this behaviour an acceptable one?" and, when he responds she can do hte whole praising the good thing.

This way she is not, really, stepping outside their approach of ignoring she is simply drawing his attention to his behaviour so that he can notice and then also notice the fact that he gets positive attention when he changes it. The chances are he doesn't even notice what he is doing himself, I know my ds often doesn't and he is much oldre than yours!

The key to this approach though is that he has to be very clear about what is wanted. Many dc just pick up on what is required, others honestly need to be told. My dd is made of jumping beans, she simply cannot sit still but trys desperatly hard now that she has had a teacher who was kind enough to say "right dd, these are the rules, this is what I want you to try and do and this is how I will help you". Quite simple really when you think about it!

That is a fantastic idea thank you - think I will suggest today

I think I would be saying to the teacher that your DS eeds more boundaries.
I wouldn't use terms like 'stricter' or 'punishments' because they may just put you down as a bit of a harsh parent perhaps!
Because also it's not about punishing or being strict anyway, is it, it's about your DS clearly knowing what's ok for school and what's not.
I would be explaining that he is a child who needs very clearly to know the boundaries and asking them to ensure these are regularly explaiend to him.
I'm surprised to hear that they ignore the negative - after all, reception is about learning what school is, how can the kids know without having it explained to them?
I think it's quite common for infant schools to use a kind of 'traffic light' system - if you are doing something you shouldn't you get told not to do whatever it is and perhaps moved to the amber light - and told that if you do this or that again you would go to the red light etc etc etc
It's clear and the kids are warned what behaviour not to repeat - it seems to me to work really well, do your DS' school not have this kind of strategy? It might be worth raising with them?

They have a golden sun system - sun if you are good, then you move down the rainbow to the muddy puddle. DS was spending all his time in the muddy puddle - when I asked him why he said 'But I love jumping in muddy puddles' . They hadnt explained it to him and to him the muddy puddle was the best place to be!

oh that's hysterical peppa
Yes they really do need to be clearer with him don't they!!! Makes you wonder if they have actually MET any boys before; mud and puddles being a universally good place to be for them really!!!

It is a fantastic insight into the psyche of a young boy though isn't it! Peppa and George jump in muddy puddles you see!

School seems to be so set up for little girls. Of course most of the girls wanted to be on that sunshine but the boys liked the puddles

different issue but same problem with one of my dds, very able but far too interested with living in her world to actually put anything on paper until one of her teachers spelt it out to her very specifically. New teacher back to the old problems........

Some children just don't seem to pick up what they are supposed to do/not do until someone actually individualises it to them.

YANBU. My ds is 7 and has just moved up to year 3 with a new teacher who is far more firm than the very lovely but more 'fluffy' KS1 teachers.

I haven't heard how the other children (eg the girls) are getting on with this new teacher but I feel it is very good for ds to have these boundaries as he, like many of his age, pushes things to the limit of what he can get away with and I have to be utterly consistent with him at home or there is mayhem.