Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

or is he?

53 replies

CandlestickMaker · 15/11/2010 17:43

Currently in talks with exP over DS1.

He is asking for overnight contact out of the blue. So far this year he has seen him during the day only about 6/7 times.

I have said yes, but on condition that he sticks to arranged contact once a fortnight for the next 4 times, and then overnight contact can begin.

Thats the first AIBU.

Because of this he has decided to cut maintanence payments from £200 per month to £20. He is self employed and CSA no help. He is being unreasonable, right?

OP posts:
Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 09:09

I have applied for a 'variation' with the CSA, as they recommended. However, the chap I spoke to mentioned they have already had a conversation with exP and he didn't sound very hopeful that it would get anyway, and it sounds as if it will take months. Wouldn't know where to start with the tax man, and to be honest I'm wary about starting a 'battle'.

OP posts:
Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 09:13

Thanks LittlebearH.

That is one of the main factors in me asking that day contact be consistent 4 times consecutively before overnight, to make sure he won't just have one overnight then not bother for another few months.

The frustrating thing is, I want DS to have regular overnight contact, it will be great for him to know he has permanent 'second' home with his Dad, I really do want them to have a good realationship.

The maintenance/contact thing - from past experience I seem to remember the court don't seem to get involved with the money side?

OP posts:
LittlebearH · 17/11/2010 09:14

I understand you dont want to start a battle but £20 is a pathetic amount.

Could you and talk to him again on neutral ground (maybe in public to avoid raised voices) and see if you can come up with something you both agree on. If not then seek some advice.

You just want the best for your DS..worth a bit of a fight??

gobbledegoop · 17/11/2010 09:15

asking that he sticks to planned and regular contact before you will allow overnight visits is perfectly reasonable. You have nothing to worry about, he is the one being a knob and of course, the court will see this.

Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 09:18

LittlebearH - the maintenance I will fight for. It's the tax evasion I don't fancy getting involved in. Communication is purely by email now, the stuff he comes out with I need time to cool off before I respond Grin

gobbledegoop - Do you think so? Court is just so frustrating, they will put a contact order in place, he can pick and choose which nbits he wants to adhere to, whereas I have to stick to all of it!

OP posts:
gobbledegoop · 17/11/2010 09:25

Definitely.

When my ex took me to court, we had to sit in a little room and work out a contact plan with some woman before we went in to see the judge who then made it an order. I did get a say on it and they made sure it was fair, you've just got to make sure you stand up for yourself and your ds. And write down all of this behaviour with dates and time etc so you have a bit of evidence to back you up.

LaurieScaryCake · 17/11/2010 09:30

Has he committed himself in writing in an email that he is offering you £400 per month? - meaning he can afford it

If so I would be taking that to court with me/forwarding it to CSA.

sixpercenttruejedi · 17/11/2010 09:30

save the emails too

Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 09:33

I have all the emails, and will be forwarding the "If you agree to overnight then I'll be happy to pay you £400 per month from now" email to the CSA.

So angry. Ds will be gutted about Saturday. I've no idea why he is pushing this so much, he has 3 more days of 'day contact' then overnight starts?! We had already agreed to it!

OP posts:
Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 09:34

Thing is - he will twist it (and probably make out to DS) that this is my fault, if I had agreed to overnight then they could still see each other ... arrrrggggh!

OP posts:
cantdecidewhattodo · 17/11/2010 09:44

Right, so he has cut ALL contact because you have not agreed overnight straight away, and he has only seen DS 5 or 6 times in a year despite living 15 mins away?

And he thinks a court will see him as reasonable?

Why is he so insistent that all contact must be overnight?

Seems a bit wierd to me, but then I am a suspicious person...

sixpercenttruejedi · 17/11/2010 09:47

new girlfriend he's trying to impress maybe?

SparklingExplosionGoldBrass · 17/11/2010 10:10

More overnights with the Nrp mean maintenance gets reduced. However in this case I think this man is bullying you because it makes his dick get stiff to do so. There comes a point where it is not worth trying to be reaonable with an unreasonable, unpleasant person: just hit him with everything legal that you can.

moonsquirter · 17/11/2010 10:29

Money and contact should be kept entirely separate - the courts will insist on this and will be hugely unimpressed by any bargaining on either side.

In terms of contact, you say you want DS to have a good relationship with your exP so isn't it best to be guided by what DS is happy with? If he's a little uncomfortable with his dad (understandable if he rarely sees him), then building up to overnights would be sensible. But he might be keen to have a sleepover if he enjoys seeing his dad, and it's only 15 mins home to you if you try the overnight and DS gets anxious.

The money must be terribly frustrating, and makes your exP sound a complete tw*t. If you're nervous about getting involved in the tax side, just apply for maintenance through the CSA. As someone else says, they've a lot of experience of self-employed fathers and I think payments are backdated from when you first apply.

Please please don't withhold contact because of finances though. Fair enough that exP needs to be more reliable so DS isn't disappointed and messed around, but the money side - unfortunately - is your problem to deal with separately.

moonsquirter · 17/11/2010 10:38

Oh, I should have read that back before posting - it sounds really unsympathetic, and I'm not! It's awful seeing your child let down by their dad and the most important thing is to protect your DS from that disappointment.

I just get really sad when I hear knee-jerk reactions from other people about cutting contact for financial reasons. I do understand there's far more to it in OP's situation but it's not generally very good advice.

I personally don't think taking things to court is great either unless there is no other option. In OP's case, the CSA can deal with the finances (court will only get involved if you're applying for more than the statutory amount - only relevant for high-earners, as I understand it) and a court order re contact just requires mum to make the child available. Sadly, you can't force someone to become reliable.

Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 10:41

I thought that is the case, which is why I have addressed both seperately when contacting him. I'm glad I have been clear about that, as no doubt these emails will be shown in court.

DS is 4. It's hard, I think, for him to know yet what he is comfortable with. Also the build up in contact is for him to proove that he can maintain consist and regular contact before we embark on overnight. I don't want DS to be used to overnight stays only for them to come to an abrubt holt all of a sudden. Which is highly likely, going by past experience.

I have applied to the CSA, but as I said before they don't sound very hopeful. I will call them again today to discuss these development, adn to see if the email offering £400 will be of any use.

I would, and have, never withdrawn contact on account of maintenance. I have kept the two entirely seperate. It's a shame he can't do the same.

OP posts:
taintedpaint · 17/11/2010 10:42

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think maintainance remains the same unless the NRP has the child/children for more than one night per every seven (so basically more than one night per week, on average) so the money would not be reduced by the CSA on the basis of one night of overnight contact a week. And what he seems to be proposing is less than that.

You are being totally reasonable here. Keep the emails, all of them and take them to a solicitor. You can get legal aid if your financial situation allows. Your ex has shot himself in the foot. He has made unreasonable demands and you have the proof of it. He has proved himself to be able to afford more maintainance than he has been paying. His contact thus far has been sporadic at best and he has violated the maintainance levels agreed on. Worst of all, he seems to be viewing your DS as a posession, something that can be bought and bargained with. It is not his right to do that, any of it.

The maintainance is there to maintain your DS, and his needs do not go up and down according to your ex's whim.

Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 10:49

I think your right re: reduction in maintenance taintedpaint. Actually, even when it is reduced, it's not by much. The proposal is to have him overnight every fortnight, so I don't think it will be reduced.

I think I will have to represent myself in court, we can't get legal aid, and we can't afford a solicitor.

" viewing your DS as a posession " is exactly how it seems to me, and it breaks my heart.

OP posts:
taintedpaint · 17/11/2010 11:14

I don't mean to pry, but is there a specific reason you can't get legal aid? If I were you, I would go to the CAB and see what they would suggest. You may be able to get a free half hour with a solicitor and while that isn't as good as having one in court with you, it may give you a decent amount of confidence in dealing with the court setting.

Your ex does sound rather a lot like he's equating the money with what he feels he deserves rather than what the money is actually intended for. You're not doing anything wrong. It's a terribly sad situation, but you are not the one causing it.

I feel for you, I've seen a similar thing happen to a friend and her DD now has no contact with her father because of wrangling about money and amount of contact (entirely the father's fault btw). He was a shitbag anyway, but these men (certainly not all men) just don't seem able to see things from their children's perspective.

Gleeb · 17/11/2010 11:26

Have you thought about going to a mediation service? I had 3 or 4 sessions with my ex that gave us enough time to cover everything as guided by the mediator (who was actually originally a lawyer but didn't bring his lawyer head in). We didn't have to pay because we proved low income i.e. low enough to be able to claim legal aid. It was all very civilised with no solicitors telling us we had to fight for certain 'rights' and it gave us the freedom to decide what was acceptable for us with no outside interference from family or friends. Highly recommend it.

MrsNonSmoker · 17/11/2010 11:52

Couple of helplines that will be able to answer these questions:

Relate www.relate.org.uk/find-out-more/index.html

and Community Legal Service

www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/gateway/family.jsp

Should be what you are looking for. Good luck

Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 12:22

taintedpaint - on paper we earn too much. I think if he follows through and we do go back to court, I will produce my evidence, state my case and I guess I'll just have to put my faith in the courts.

I will be furious if he doesn't go ahead with contact on Saturday. The money thing I can deal with because it doens't directly affect DS.

Gleeb - I think we are beyond mediation, but thank you.

MrsNonSmoker - thank you for those, will have a look.

OP posts:
Original poster
CandlestickMaker · 17/11/2010 12:59

Blimey - quick update...

I stuck to my guns, replied to say DS will be disapointed about missing contact, and re-iterated reasons behind not wanting overnight to start so soon.

He has replied saying he will continue contact as previously agreed, will wait for overnight and bring £400 maintenance when he comes to pick him up on Saturday.

I think we may have had a break through!!

Thank you everyone for your advice!

OP posts:
taintedpaint · 17/11/2010 15:15

Wow, that does seem to be a pretty good turn of events! Let's hope it's genuine and he follows through on it.

Keep us updated!

LittlebearH · 17/11/2010 16:17

Hooray! Well done you!

Swipe left for the next trending thread