to think early pregnancy scans should not be offered on the NHS

[nancydrewrocked]

OK I am prepared to be flamed but I couldn't help thinking this when I spoke to a friend recently. So tell me why I ABU.

Friend has just started ttc. No difficulties, no previous history. 2nd month of trying she gets a +ve the day her period is due. Two weeks later another scan no HB. Friend understandably very upset.

But I can't help thinking this would have been easier on her if the GP had gently told her to go home take it easy and then done a blood/pregnancy test in 2 weeks. It also strikes me as a enormous and unecessary cost, especially when many areas no longer offer routine 12 week or nuchal scans.

VivaLeBeaver the scans are done in completely different parts of the hospital you ignorant fool.

I'm sorry that the nasty inconvenient business of possibly finding an answer about WHY I keep losing my babies might get in the way. I'm sorry that my pregnancies are obviously not important enough to justify monitoring... and that it's going to be far preferable if I get to 12 weeks and then have to go for surgery to remove missed miscarriages. I'm sorry that we obviously don't fucking matter because hey-ho - we're just the fools who miscarry.

GOD SOME OF YOU FUCKERS MAKE ME SICK.

i have had two ectopics confirmed at 5 and 6 weeks, through a transvaginal scan. the idea that you can't see anything before 7 weeks is false.

If you're bleeding/in pain you need a scan to rule out an ectopic pregnancy. For that reason alone, YABVU.

I had four early scans with my last pregnancy, after experiencing cramping and bleeding. The first time it looked like the embryo wasn't developing as it should and I was expecting to MC. The second was to see if there'd been any progress - there had but it still didn't look great. The third, everything looked hunky dory and I was elated. The fouth was to confirm what I already knew - that despite the positive scan, I'd lost the pregnancy.

I needed all those scans. Wht else should they (the EPAU) have done?!?

nancydrew to explain why i think that you are wrong is because of the hormone content in the blood.
To take a pregnancy test 2 weeks on will still show a positive, this is becasue the hormones are still there.
It can take many weeks for the hormones to deplete enough to show a negative.
For this reason, a pregnancy test is not helpful.

I think that as others have said, ectopics can have early symptoms of bleeding, this can of course be life threatening, so this is why it is so important to check for evidence of pregnancy within the womb and not else where.

Does that make sense?
I dont think that you are being unkind, i think that you are asking "why" and there is nothing wrong with that.
I aksed if you have had a mc as it is easier to converse with some one who has experience, iyswim.

But highly unlikely things do happen - that's the problem.

When my missed miscarriage was diagnosed, I was put in a room with another lady who was sobbing her heart out.

Her pregnancy was ectopic and she'd just been told she'd need an operation.

She had no symptoms besides a bleed. No pain at all.

Yet if her condition had not been diagnosed, she probably would have died.

By the way - I was still testing postiive on pregnancy tests 6 weeks AFTER my miscarriage was completely removed.

Your pregnancy test idea just shows your ignorance.

sorry nancydrewrocked we x posted, i see you have sadly got experience of this.

Bllod test for HGC are not totally reliable to assertain a viable pregnancy, in my last pregnancy when i had bleeding I only thought I was 4 weeks so too early to scan so the EPC did repeat blood tests.
These showed a rise in levels but not the doubling that is expected in 48 hours but the levels indicated I was approx 6 weeks preganant.
I was scanned and there was a heartbeat. The consultant told me that blood test levels are only important in the very early weeks of pregenancy so by 6 weeks are less reliable.
If I had only had blood tests to go on im sure I would have been convinced it was all over so soon again.

As conception dates are so unsure I think being offered a scan to ckrck the actual age of the baby was appropriate for your friend, it's just so sad that she didn't get the outcome she so desperatly wanted

you say not history (how do you know for certain???) and no symptoms of other issues - bleeding can be a symptom of an ectopic.

As Aitch says by the time the more common "symptoms" of an ectopic are there the damage internally can already be massive.

empyshell

Why the nasty, personal attack? I work in the maternity dept at my local hospital and believe me they are done in teh same dept, by the same people. It may be different depts at your hospital but that ain't the same everywhere.

Who's the ignorent fool now?

Viva - usually hospitals have separate ultrasound facilities for EPU, so this should affect scans at 6 or 7 months.

And also, are you advocating women should wait until their 12 week scan even with indications of MC? The EPU is set up to deal with bad news, can you imagine being told in antenatal clinic that you have had a MC and sitting there with all those pregnant women?

From your second post I think some of your OP has been misconstrued as an attack on early scans where perhaps you were questioning finding out so early and the worry that causes but this is how it is so YABU.

Viva, can you not see why she is making personal attacks? Have you not read her posts? Have some compassion.

A poster here on MN earlier this year was basically told "oh there's nothing wrong with you - of you go home" and could have died from what turned out to be an ectopic

actually now you are just pissing me off.

"It was highly unlikely that it was anything other than a mc." what is it that you are not understanding about ectopic pregnancy here?
1 out of every 100 pregnancies is ectopic. it's just not that unlikely. and what habs said about molar pregnancies is also very relevant. can you take on board that however real the pain of people going through a miscarriage undoubtedly is, their improved mental health or otherwise is actually only a by product of an actual medical need to know if someone is about to bleed out and die in the waiting room?

Believe me - they're NOT in our bloody hospital.

EPU - completely miles away in the arse end of the hospital. Separate scan machine, separate staff.

Your post said that our losses didn't matter, that our LIVES in the case of ectopics didn't matter, that the chance of a diagnosis about my bloody incessant miscarriages doesn't matter because I'm not part of the fucking happy happy bump club.

You're disgusting and a disgrace to the NHS if you think that way.

Some of you lot fucking sicken me.

OH HEY YOU DON'T MATTER BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOU - CONGRATULATIONS YOU'LL KEEP ON MISCARRYING, CONGRATULATIONS JUST SIT THERE AND FUCKING BLEED AND WONDER WHAT'S GOING ON - YOU MIGHT FIND OUT THE ANSWERS IN 9 MONTHS BUT YOU'RE NOT IMPORTANT YOU WASTE OF FUCKING RESOURCES YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had an early scan at 7 weeks because I had bleeding and cramping. Like your friend no heartbeat was found and I was told to come back in a weeks times. So no it didn't give me closure but it did help in many ways. It at least confirmed I wasn't having an ectopic pregnancy so was less likely to collapse and possibly die (I consider this a massive bonus personally). It also meant that the hospital could give me some emotional support and prepare me for the possibility of miscarriage.

When I did miscarry a few days later the advice and reasurance I was given when I had the early scan, as well as just knowing what to expect and when I should panic and rush to A&E was invaluble.

Even a few weeks after my mc I am still glad that I had the scan and saw the fetus. I know that the baby was there, that it just didn't develop properly and that my body just did what it was supposed to do. This may sound strange if you haven't been though it but right now that feels very important to me.

'actually now you are just pissing me off.'

THIS is NOT U.

OP...YABVVU.

Maybe only OP knows her friend best and how much the rollercoaster of false hope could be quite damaging to her? I think that people are too quick to bring their own personal experiences to something like this, without remembering that it's different for each of us. I would prefer to avoid a rollercoaster of false hope, too.

"Your post said that our losses didn't matter, that our LIVES in the case of ectopics didn't matter, that the chance of a diagnosis about my bloody incessant miscarriages doesn't matter because I'm not part of the fucking happy happy bump club.

"

I never said that at all!

Loopy - she called me an ignorant fool. I think thats a personal attack.

and I tell you what - if I were to ever get pregnant again, and had bleeding but no other symptoms, despite no history of issues I would want that scan done

Yes, but my point is, can you not see why she might make a personal attack? Please just leave it now, in the name of compassion and decency.

I have massively irregular periods. We found out I was pregnant in July and my last period was in February. We weren't actively trying so had absolutely no idea when we conceived. All we knew is that it was more than the maximum a Clearblue digital can predict.

My GP wanted me to have an early scan booked as he was concerned that we would miss the window for nuchal translucency etc. The hospital took a wild guess and said I was around five weeks, booked my '12-week' scan on that assumption (ie seven weeks later) and refused to give me the early scan.

We ended up paying £150 so that I could have an early dating scan. I was 10+3 on the day they'd guessed I was five weeks.

Luckily we could afford the private scan but not everyone can.

MC and ectopic weren't suspected but we could have missed out on nuchal translucency and various other things.

lljkk, but you are applying knowledge from the scan (ie that she wasn't about to keel over from an ectopic pregnancy) and saying in retrospect that it would have been better if she hadn't known about the miscarriage.

but if it had been an ectopic pregnancy? better to know, yes?

Ok I am sorry if I have offended anyone, I realise that my post only part posting didn't help.

I will reiterate again that where there is history (and I am absolutely sure my friend has none) it is a different ball game and for emphasis I am not questioning first trimester scans I am questioning the merits of very early scans.

And I had no idea that bleeding is a sign of an ectopic - so I will accept entirely that I am wrong on that and that I have been very unreasonable.

When I had my first mc at 8 weeks I had a very heavy bleed. I went to the Dr, had blood test and another the following week and what I already knew was confirmed. An ectopic was never suggested (and in fact despite the fact that I have spotted throughout my pregnancies it has never been raised as a possible sign of ectopic)