to be very heartened by the student riots!

[Heathcliffscathy]

apathy be damned...I predict more riots...looks like the youth have found their teeth.

'Peacful protest gets ignored '

The only sort to be effective IMO -they have lost as soon as the anarchists manipulate them for their own ends.

Surely our "blue collar" workers are the most important people this country has? Without people who have these skills quite frankly the country would fall apart. As for it being seen as second class, is it really? I know of some plumbers who get a far better hourly rate than many other professions and good for them, they have to know a great deal! This applies to so many other worthwhile professions that are the back bone of our country. If we all get a little snobby about this stuff about it not being a "good enough" profession we have no choice but to employ from elsewhere, leading to more issues with regards to unemployment blah blah blah.

I think it is really sad that that has happened and that valuable careers have been devalued just as university degrees seem to have been too. The more "vocational" side of things and apprenticeships (appalling spelling I agree from a degree educated person however it was a vocational one ) are something I really hope that get more input, they are likely to provide funding from companies who really need these people reducing the outlay from the "student" and could potentially be seen as far more valuable in the future to have done an apprenticeship than having any old degree iyswim. (Places would be harder fought for, jobs would be more secure as people would be likely to stay for longer - perhaps it would be the start of a more valuable culture rather than the sort of throw away culture that we sometimes have.)

Harpy -- It's Labour who've made your friends feel ashamed of themselves. What cunts they are for this achievement.

I want my child to not go to university. I see no shame --- seems perfectly sensible to me. You're suited or your not. But there aren't the oppotunities now that there were, now that everyone has a degree it really does highlight, or seem to highlight, something about you if you don't have a degree, and career opportunities are disappearing for school leavers. Labour are utter cunts for making things this way.

Choccy, you're so right. I'm incredibly heartened by the number of people who feel the same way actually.

When I read about arts students aged 24, 25, never been out of full time education, outraged at funding cuts, I just think for God's sake what's the matter with you? Don't you want real life, a job, some savings, money you've earned, a self-reliant future, some purpose?

Joolyjoolyjool, yes, I think we should limit the number of places and universities should beef up their admissions processes. But my idea is aimed at making well-trained rich kids, who look great at age 18 but then coast because they know they don't really need to worry about the future pay more. Those who make the most of their place should pay a bit less.

It makes sense to me because as a student, you are not a straightforward consumer; how well you do in your degree feeds into the university's reputation and ranking so you should be rewarded for your contribution. Like a scholarship, essentially, but made more systematic.

Appletrees, it's not all Labour's fault. It was the last Tory government that set us on the path to massive expansion of university education. Once Polys were able to become universities, practical training got a dirty name and the Polys started changing their courses.

I was so proud of my "poly" degree, I was there just after they had become universities but everyone knew they were still poly's. Some very successful people went to Poly's or the equivalent (Gary Rhodes hasn't done badly has he?).

Mastikula - I like your idea but have some reservations, e.g traditional studying/exams don't suit everyone. I admit to being out of touch with regards to some aspects of a levels as been a while and not there with my own children yet, but for me I did completely the wrong subjects and was advised very poorly on what I should have done. I consequently ended up with 3 x D's (not hugely proud I admit), however I went onto get a 1st at university/poly which I am incredibly proud of as perhaps I was lucky when employers were more interested in it as it was practical and gave me some function for a job (albeit quite a lot of theory but that could easily be put into practice,) it may only have been a hotel management degree but it has got me further in my chosen field because it is so practical and had all aspects of management to use as a building block for a future career. That being said sadly it doesn't pay too well!

My point is though that although I got a 1st and was proud of it, I do feel slightly undervalued now as it is what some people externally would thing of as a mickey mouse degree, even though I worked harder on a daily basis, had to go into the workplace for a year etc etc, than any of my friends at traditional university, with a degree in history of art and working 4 hours per week. I admit that there is the responsibility to put your own edge on and work your way through things (we also did this but had to do so whilst attending lectures and practicals etc.) Thinking back for the amount of information that I was given AND had to find out for myself I would have got a "bigger bang for my buck" doing my degree! Perhaps that is the way it will go from here?

'When I read about arts students aged 24, 25, never been out of full time education, outraged at funding cuts, I just think for God's sake what's the matter with you? Don't you want real life, a job, some savings, money you've earned, a self-reliant future, some purpose?'

are you for real?

'According to the Standard, one of the riot planners was a 27 year old lecturer in international relations. All his life in education, the public sector, public money.'

what in gods name is wrong with being a lecturer?

Well quite a lot if you plan riots. Basically nothing .inlet about his cause: his golden goose may be having its tubes tied so he went and planned a riot.

Yes sure I am for real. I think there is something really odd about wanting to depend on others well into your twenties, never striking out, earning your own money, getting.g your own place, proud to stand up for yourself. Like those guys that don't leave home until they marry. No idea about the real world.

nonsensical rubbish

Exactly. Impossible to see that's a desirable option. Growing up.

So, Apple, is it just the art students who irritate you or people who go into post grad education too?

To be honest I don't understand it. I was an arts grad, obviously therefore so were many of my student friends, most really. I think there's a small pool of arts talent that "earns" full time education past twenty one, with their gifts, talent, passion, commitment and contribution to cultural life. There is also quite a wodge of self-indulgence and time wasting. I don't see how that self-indulgence is appealing as a way of life: one is perfectly capable of furthering one's passion outside the world of academia, where the air is rare and the real world doesn't intrude. The "real world" in fact should inform arts study and can do so wonderfully: for example, we all (well me anyway) have a certain view about politicians who have never done anything but be politicians, and the same obtains with the arts.

There is nothing more tiresome in the literary world than the internalism of writers writing about being writers. I feel the same way about art about art, like (I think it's called) Arte Povera.

At a certain point why don't students want to say, now it's time to earn some money, find out how most people live, rely on myself. Give myself some line between my world and the messy world of personal responsibility.

And for those who never leave the world of education from the age of four, I think there's a sort of fear, sometimes, of what the hell is out there.

Oh I see Art students D Cameron and N Clegg seem to have done alright for themselves don't cha know?

Actually on mn I think one of the main complaints about then is that they know nothing about the real world!

Of course there are plenty of arts grad who do well .. ypu could look at the products of east angling creative writing for a start. That is not really what I'm talking about.

East anglia

Well, the real world is in fact full of scary people.

Have you got anything interesting to say?

Sometimes words fail me, I'm guilty of that, I agree.

Go on, try. What exactly is so astonishing and unbelievably acceptable about my posts. I understand they might threaten an orthodoxy you have signed up to but you could try to address them with thought if you feel so strongly about it.

I think that should say unacceptable.

No, it is not the right time of the day, I'm afraid. Children at home, dinner to get ready. I'm sorry I don't have much time for writing an adequate post.
I haven't signed to any kind of orthodoxy, and, to be honest, I don't live in the UK anymore.
I do however now live in a country where the small rate of people in higher education is widely considered as a big problem for the country's cultural and economic growth.

your ignorance is so fundamental there's nothing anyone can say.

i can't be bothered myself.