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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think people won't believe me?

68 replies

HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 09:48

Long story short, I have been harassed by my female boss at work, basically it seems for being pregnant. I am currently on maternity leave and have now had to raise a grievance because I am seriously shitting myself at having to work with or for her again and just can't go back. The thing is she has never been physically threatening towards me and so I just don't understand why I am getting chest pains, insomnia, hot sweats/cold sweats etc when I am contemplating all this. The worst are waking from nightmares where I have had my baby son adopted so I can go back to work and I wake myself up with all the crying I'm doing while asleep.

Things she has done:
(1) Changed the team meetings to the time of my antenatal appointments (at same time on same day every week) while I was on annual leave and then bollocked me for not attending the team meetings when I was at the hospital (despite having notice of the dates and times of antenatal apptms)
(2) Circulated my personal mobile no to entire dept without checking with me first so that I had to change numbers before coming on maternity leave
(3) Told my assistant to bin all my files and not tell me she had been asked that (seriously...I came back from holiday to find her sitting next to me at my desk - she never told me why she'd come to sit next to me and proceeded to have all the IT set up to her requirements and I was forced to move out and deskhop at about 30 week pregnant with a chest infection) - this was 3 weeks before a restructuring announcement in which it appears I have been hugely demoted (30% pay cut) and/or made redundant
(4) Called me in off sick leave (with chest infection as above) for a 1:1 and then frogmarched out of the building when she realised colleagues were concerned at her treatment of me

8 days after I gave birth she emailed me to demand I attend a meeting in a fortnight for my appraisal etc. When I stressed I couldn't attend (breastfeeding etc) she repeated request that she come to my home to meet with me. She and I know that she stays in a hotel round the corner from my house 3 days a week that she works in our town. This means I cannot go past there to get to my GP or hospital at certain times (e.g. work rush hour) in case I run into her. I have even had panic attacks where I have thought I have seen her walking past our home but I could never prove it was her and it was in the 2 - 3 weeks after giving birth so I don't know how paranoid I was feeling.

There's more but that's a lot of the worst stuff. Am I overreacting? GP prescribed me tamazepan to try and help sleep (useless) and now wants me to go on Citalopram but I don't want drugs - I want this situation/her to stop hence having to raise the grievance.

A lot of her emails/pressure to attend meetings occurred in the period between 2 weeks prior to giving birth to 8 weeks after and I feel that it has scarred me in a way that people are going to think...christ, worse things have happened at sea, you've got a lovely baby, what's your problem?

And are people (e.g. especially the grievance hearing person) going to think get a grip? And I'm also concerned that people will think well how can a woman discriminate against another woman? I also worry that because I can't understand or explain WHY she has behaved like this, I don't see how people can believe me.

So am I being unreasonable and/or overreacting? If I felt I had a sense of perspective over this (sense of humour seems to have taken flight too) I think I would feel better...so a sense of perspective people please?

OP posts:
HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 10:32

maryz Unfortunately I can't walk away for financial reasons but I think even if I were able to I would find it hard to put this behind me. In between being a quivering wreck I am also suddenly very angry and vengeful. I have been told even if my claims are upheld, I will never know if she has been disciplined or not, and therefore I cannot even expect an apology. Considering an apology might go some way to making me feel saner I then wonder why I am pushing ahead with the grievance when it's conclusion can't give me a remedy I want - however, I do want my job back, but I also want her not to be working in the same department or on the same floor and preferably even the same office as me. I had to see her about a month ago and a colleague said I went ashen faced. I felt like I was going to pass out. I am not usually sucha wimp really. Before all this I was pretty robust. Do you ever regret not pursuing it? I fear not pursuing it would make me even more bitter in the long run. Gah! But who knows.

OP posts:
MumBarTheDoorZombiesAreComing · 31/10/2010 10:40

Im sorry your going through this and congratualtions of you new family member . Smile

You actually don't need to go back to work the GP can sign you off with stress, make sure its put on your notes due to work harrassment. You will not lose money that way and it gives you time to decide what your doing whilst the case is investigated.

YANBU at all btw in persuing a greivence, wtf does this woman think she is??

xwitch · 31/10/2010 10:42

Hellatwork, You are NOT a wimp. She is a horrible bully putting you through hell. It would get anyone down.

I think your friends do believe you its just they are concerned about what it is doing to you. I do see their point but walking away could also leave things feeling unresolved which would get you down too. Gather all the evidence the others have suggested and see what the legal advice is.

You can also come on here anytime you need to let of steam.

HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 10:46

MumBar Thanks - thank god he is all fine and dandy - have been very lucky on the baby front and I know that is what is really important. She's a litigation lawyer is who she is - so for a start she doesn't like to put things in writing (although I do have a few damning emails from her not in terms of what she's said - just that they back up certain facts - she would not be so silly as to put anything directly discriminatory/harassing in an email)

I am not due back to work until December. I did beg the GP for a medical note early on during mat leave in the hope it might make her back off a bit but as he rightly pointed out, no point because I was not expected to be in work (this was so she couldn't insist on coming to my house). But like you say if grievance is not concluded/resolution achieved by point of return will have to go back to GP.

OP posts:
HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 10:51

Also - to anyone who has shared their horrible boss stories - those are of great comfort (though sorry you had to go through this too) because it just makes me think, ok, there are just nasty nasty people out there.

What I think I am most terrified of is being confronted with her lying to me, when she knows I know she is lying. That sounds insane (and v sheltered life I've lead) but how do you react when someone is blatantly lying to you even though they know you know they are lying? They just don't care. She has form for this (encouraging another employee to blame a colleague for some job they hadn't done - simply because colleague was moving departments - she seemed to think that made the leaving employee fair game to take the blame for anything)

OP posts:
Goblinchild · 31/10/2010 10:54

If I wanted to fight it, I'd evidence it with copies of emails, following up conversations with written notes clarifying what had been said, daily log of incidents and witnesses, photographs and all the rest.
Dated and annotated.

HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 10:59

Goblinchild I am, I am...my 10 month old barely gets a look in at the moment which then makes me feel guilty. I have two lever arch files full of stuff, a 20,000 word witness statement, a 19 page chronology - until he was 6 months old I was just in despair and then once he could sit up this anger came out of nowhere and so this is what I have spent the rest of my maternity leave doing, instead of enjoying my time with him. It is all so frustrating. But yes, your advice is good, I feel I have been doing/am doing all of that but then feel bitter because it as all at the cost of spending time with my child. Can't win (writing the witness statement was both cathartic and even more embittering)

OP posts:
LittleMissHissyFangs · 31/10/2010 11:11

Honey, I feel your pain. I can only agree with Goblinchild on this.

I've been bullied by a couple of female bosses. The last pair were however both mothers though. One the Alpha female to a SAHD (Tim Nice-but-Dim, hopeless) the other a dumped OW with the offspring. Both totally bitter.

I got forced out at 6m pg. I rattled legal cages and got a few grand payout. A year later, they did the same to a former colleague of mine, who is registered disabled. She took them to the night before the tribunal and got a nice juicy pay out too!

Stay cool, stay calm. If you are concerned about loyalties, go to the MD/Chairman and cc the HR person. Get your Dr to sign you off. They can't instigate any proceedings if you are signed off. If they do, they can be sued from here to kingdom come.

What this woman is doing to you is not on. It needs to stop now. If she lies to your face, then just hold yourself high and say, you know that's not true, and we all know that only you have something to gain by lying. Make sure you have proof of everything. If you have any conversations at all with her, put them in writing and confirm them to her by email.

Get yourself signed off, look for another job, and try the citalopram, or if you really can't face it, try some St johns Wort and some Bachs rescue remedy.

There is no reason for you to be going through this.

Lougle · 31/10/2010 11:12

HellAtWork 5½ years ago, I would have been telling you 'report report, you have great evidence'. However, my experience is, now, that you can have all the evidence in the world, and if it is too inconvenient to deal with the real problem, they will take the path of least resistence.

I was working for a large Public Sector Organisation. As such, they have a very established 'whistle blowing policy'.

I was in a tricky position. My line manager was the partner of my same-grade colleague. But, my same-grade colleague was...taking advantage....of that position, and cherry-picking shifts, refusing to do certain work, and the result was that despite her years of experience, I as a newly qualified staff member was having to do more of that work, and at the same time supervise an unqualified member of staff, while she was able to insist that she worked with our boss, so had support, rather than being a supporter. Added to that, was the fact that I realised our time sheets were being completed in an....unorthodox fashion...on instruction from our boss, so we were being overpaid. We had questioned it on several occasions, and been told this was legitimate - it wasn't.

When I challenged the colleague directly, the result was that a time-bomb went off. I was frequently shunned, excluded from team comraderie, other colleagues simply 'took cover' - can't blame them. I was increasingly moved to another section of work so that my colleague and my boss didn't have to share breathing space with me.

I couldn't stand it, the atmosphere was shockingly hostile, all because I had pointed out the unfairness of the working arrangements.

I found another job, and my boss wrote a reference, which was fine. However, on a future occasion, she refused to provide a reference at all, which effectively blocked my employment as it is a professional role.

I blew the whistle prior to leaving, shared the whole story. The management didn't believe me at first, then I basically had to say "how many people of this grade do you know who earn £x per year. How do you think I earn that much?" They then thought that I was simply worried that they would claw it back. I wasn't. I had genuinely claimed what I was assured was the right amount on claim forms, but I had found out that it was wrong.

I have since gone on to have 3 children, and my eldest has SN. I haven't been able to work for a while, because of her needs. The funny thing is that I was good at that job. Really good. I skilled up quickly, built relationships between departments that had previously been strained. I spoke to the department head a few months ago when I bumped into him, and he urged me to get in contact and do some agency for them.

But nothing has changed. The staffing is still the same (well, most people have moved on and there is a whole lot of agency, but the core is the same). The senior management knew the issue was too big, so they ducked.

I feel for you, it is a terrible, terrible situation. But my experience is that unless you set a watertight case that cannot be ignored, then ignore it they will, because it is too much aggro to deal with it.

LittleMissHissyFangs · 31/10/2010 11:15

I'd also tell your company that you suspect her of spying on you at home. Demand that she use another hotel in your litigation.

If you do have to leave you can sue her for Constructive Dismissal and Sexual discrimination. I'd be interested in seeing if you can add harassment to this too.

HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 11:54

LittleMisHissyFangs I have held back on saying I think I have seen her outside my flat windows (ground floor so easy to peer in) - bearing in mind I was extremely sleep deprived and baby was about 3 weeks old - because I feel like it makes me sound like a loon and I can't prove it. But yes I would feel better if I knew she wasn't staying there. I will think about whether I could/should ask this? It would be very nice to pop out to M&S near dinnertime when the cupboards are bare - but M&S is opposite the hotel so as I did yesterday, went in a different direction and made do with a Tesco's finest meal (not sure whether you can actually claim damages for being forced to eat Tesco finest meals as opposed to M&S but it certainly wasn't as tasty! Wink)

OP posts:
maryz · 31/10/2010 12:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

taintedpaint · 31/10/2010 12:09

I'm afraid I don't have any advice, but I just wanted to reinforce what the others have said. I believe you and I don't even know you. Just the way you talk makes me know you are genuine.

I am so sorry you are going through this, and you are right, there are sometimes just nasty people out there and they treat you like shit for no reason.

Whatever happens (and please keep us updated!), a massive congratulations on the birth of your baby!

petelly · 31/10/2010 12:12

Moneysaving expert has a very good 'employment issues' forum. There's an employment barrister who posts there called 'Sarel' and she gives fantastic advice as to your legal rights. One thing I remember is NOT to go for constructive dismissal as that can be very hard to prove.

HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 12:37

petelly thanks for that - I will try over there with my question about having to face two hearings as opposed to rolling it into one (e.g. all the events are inextricably linked but couldn't they have two hearing managers, one for harassment, one for grievance, at the same hearing at the same time just with different remits? Saves on their resources and time too)

MaryZ you mentioned senior partner? Was your bully a lawyer too?

Lougle What a horrible story. So sorry for you. Why oh why can't companies see that in terms of risk/loss of reputation/payouts in compensation it would be cheaper and more effective to deal with the person bullying than to run the complainer out of town. Chances are they will face a similar claim down the line with someone like that.

Thanks again for all advice/empathy - I have to meet with investigation manager in a week's time alone so this is my main fear at the moment - having to tell her all of this. I know she has to be impartial (just gathering evidence and then puts a dossier to the actual hearing manager apparently) but in the face of blank impartiality I just feel that I will crumble and all the self-doubt will hit me in that meeting and will destroy my case.

OP posts:
maryz · 31/10/2010 12:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hairytriangle · 31/10/2010 13:15

This is a clear case of bullying.

and when you ask are people going to wonder 'how can a woman harrass another woman' IMHO they most certainly can!

I think you've got a very clear case here but need to get some representation.

cobbledtogether · 31/10/2010 13:18

YANBU or overreacting. I left my last job due to being bullied by the (female) manager of my area.

Undermining me in front of my staff.
Changing plans
Making unpleasant, personal comments about my appearance before and after birth.

I was too much of a chicken and just left and got another job.

RE the union - My union said they wouldn't pay towards any costs if it went to truibunal (same reason as you) but they would sit in on any grievance proceedings - can you check if they could do that for you?

HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 13:21

Thanks MaryZ - i think i have already reached the point where I feel it has already ruined my time with my new baby. That's what I mean by am i being unreasonable/ blowing this out of proportion to let it affect me this badly? The night before I went into labour I was reading through restructuring stuff to try and understand how it all worked and how I was now a displaced employee despite my old job still existing at a 30% paycut. 8 days after giving birth I was replying to emails trying to fend her off for coming round to my house. So I now feel like, at the very least, I am owed my maternity leave back. I can't regain the time so will have to try and get the money to give me some time back before I have to find another job. Also very sad at having to give up breastfeeding in order to be medicated for the stress (which didn't even really help) so I think you're right - I am just too too bitter to let it go now. I want an apology and I want an acknowledgment the treatment was unlawful and not to be tolerated. I am just hoping that the hearing manager is someone who has either given birth or has been close to someone who has at some point in their life.

OP posts:
HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 13:33

babyheave I have already asked union and they have said they cannot provide a rep to sit in with me at the grievance hearing so will just have to grit my teeth and go it alone. I have however verified that will not have to sit across from line manager - she will not be present. Not sure how I would cope with that - I actually feel like I'm almost allergic to her - different/varying symptoms like immediate upset stomach/feeling faint/nauseous etc. Very strange. Have always suffered from psoriasis to a small degree but my scalp, eyebrows and ears are now itchy red scabs and am scratching all the time despite steroid lotion. See? How is anyone going to think - ah yes - that's a proportionate reaction?

OP posts:
LittleMissHissyFangs · 31/10/2010 13:40

honey all of these physical symptoms are because of this bullying, tell them it is. Don't you dare beat yourself up about this. You'll end up in a better job than this in the end, and she'll always be a bitch. Have faith, you have done nothing wrong.

EldritchCleavage · 31/10/2010 13:55

All sadly familiar, OP. My sister had a (female) boss like this, and the effect on my sister was so marked we were really worried about her for a while. Boss was awful to all the employees she managed-just very neurotic and odd.

Poor sis felt she had to invite her to sis's birthday party to avoid the hellish fallout if boss was excluded. I'd never set eyes on boss but within 15 seconds of walking into that party I knew which woman had to be evil boss, her weird nastiness was that obvious.

Do NOT torture yourself wondering why on earth she has been like this to you. She just is like that.

Personally, I admire your spirit and think you probably will feel and recover better by seeing it through than by walking away, but you need to keep that under review. If you do decide you can't proceed, please never never feel guilty about that.

HellAtWork · 31/10/2010 14:59

Thank you LittleMiss - I am really trying hard and I know friends are concerned about me but then their advice (not all, have 2-3 friends that know I will have to see it through to the bitter end and are very supportive) is to just leave, walk away and that's when I start to lose self-belief (also am boring myself now - have an uncle who went through a bitter divorce TWENTY YEARS AGO - it is still his ONLY topic of conversation - I can just see me shrivelled and toothless in some care home spitting venom about this woman when I'm 95 - it doesn't make for great company and I know I am self-absorbed at the moment but just can't shake it off). I just don't see why I should walk away - I've been there 5 years, longer than line manager, very happily until she became my manager 3 months into my pregnancy. And then all this.

Christ on a Horse Eldritch - okay now I have to be grateful for all evil line manager's behaviour she has not yet insisted I invite her to my birthday! FFS! I do have a friend that has just escaped a very similar boss (she very cunningly blew her out of the water with a very innocent enquiry about not having had an appraisal and has since managed to move into another department). And yes my parents have been really worried. I must admit to feeling horribly bleak at times (not proactively suicidal as in I would actually DO anything not to live, more like if I could have fallen asleep and never awoken again I might have taken that option - the guilt that makes me feel when my little boy is such a joy and pleasure is immense - the nightmares feel like my brain is just screaming at me 'rock and hard place rock and hard place' as soon as I fall asleep. Eldritch Did your sister escape? Was there a happy ending?

OP posts:
LittleMissHissyFangs · 31/10/2010 18:03

Oh don't worry, as soon as you get through this, you will eventually let it go.... Hmm That said I still wish ill on that bitch that went through all my emails and cited ONE where I told a slightly flaky and very casual candidate to 'kick orange's arse' cos I could never reach her to arrange interviews.

All was well with me till this woman came back from MatLeave. The day I left there was a fuming thunder cloud above me, she didn't attend any of the meetings despite apparently being my line boss, she lied about meetings, didn't register where I expressed concern that i was being asked to do more than others could.

In short she set me up. I'm not an overly murderous person, but I fantasised about seeing her in my part of London while I was still there, and running over Miss OCD 2005 repeatedly or screaming at her in Planet fecking organic.

It's bad enough to contemplate returning to work after having a baby, worse still when you know you are walking into a seething pit of hell fire.

OK, PLAN, don't worry, you know the Dr has your back, you know that you are well entitled to declare yourself sick and submit a formal complaint of harassment, sexual discrimination, constructive dismissal and whatever else you can sling at her.

So now you have all this documentation against her, you know what you have to do, and when, relax and enjoy the time you have with your DS.

Please don't worry about your son not having had your undivided attention, honestly it will not register, you can give him lots of cuddles and he'll never know what mummy's going through.

Take it from me, you have the rest of your lives to make it up to him. He'll learn lots from having a strong mummy who stands up for herself!

Hugs for you, it'll be OK.

onceamai · 31/10/2010 19:20

This is discrimination against a pregnant employee - they have also caused you extreme stress during pg, maternity leave and she has harassed/bulliedl you. This is taken very seriously at Employment Tribunals and providing you have hard evidence I would not want to have to defend this woman's actions. Two hearings sound reasonable to me. You need to ensure that you get copies of the notes of all meetings before attending either hearing - you are entitled to this. It is reasonable to investigate a grievance within 28 days and I am assuming HR are involved.

Get hold of ACAS guidelines and make sure these are followed during investigation and hearing. The hearings will have to disseminate findings and recommendations to you. If these are not acceptable you will will have to appeal. You will have to exhaust internal procedures before taking this external.

I am surprised that the union will not support you in this. Try talking to them again and sharing your actual evidence with them. I would advise, however, that these sorts of things do become very stressful and if the job is so unpleasant it may be best to reach an agreement and an agreed reference and look for another job.

Good luck.

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