To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

No thats not true, Non-disabled babies can be aborted up to 40 weeks too.

If there is going to be significant damage to the mothers mental health or physical health.

OP....this has been this way for a long time, no slippery slope yet.

So you would advocate abortion up to 9 months Ghoul? It just doesn't sit right with me that a woman can decide if a baby lives or dies the second before its born but not the second after.

Posie I've already said a few times that cases where the baby won't survive beyond birth are completely different and that's why I stated non-lifethreatening in my OP.

Well, advocate implies that I'd enthusiastically promote it! As others have said upthread, I don't think lifting the time limit would lead to a flood of late abortions. Everybody, except the very young, knows about the emotional risks of abortion ... and even the very young will be swayed by their pregnancy hormones in later stages. I passionately believe every woman has the right to choose what goes in & out of her body, as far as nature will allow. This right is a recently-won triumph of human endeavour that, imo, we should celebrate instead of constricting it.

Posie is it possible to genetically test for intelligence and mental health issues?

Re your "moment after" comment: I'm old enough to remember when it was part of a midwife's job to quietly kill off malformed babies as soon as they were born. I imagine that still happens in rare cases, but it's not the everyday accurrence it was then. It was a shocking painful state of affairs, which has been mitigated by the development of intr-uterine tests and late-stage terminations.

Typng's gone to pot [hblush] Better take a break ...

Sorry Ghoul when I typed advocate I knew it looked wrong and I meant to change it. My issue is that the availability of testing and the assumption that a positive test for DS in particular will lead to abortion inherently devalues disabled people. I'm not against abortion, and I agree that a woman should have control over her body but I also believe that all people including the disabled should be valued. The idea that it is somehow a better or more normal choice to abort rather than to keep a disabled child makes me feel very sad and uncomfortable.

I'm very black and white on this issue...I think a woman should be able to decide if she is prepared to be a parent right up to birth, within reason. I don't know anyone who has terminated without some sort of internal struggle, especially for reasons like the baby would have a disability. For em it was a no brainer, any disabilities and I would terminate.

I would argue that it is impossible to test children for mental health issues they would suffer later in life and intelligence can be altered through experience.

"Do you agree with designer babies?"

not for myself, no.

Agree Ghoul that was an awful situation but just because that same baby is hidden in the womb doesn't mean he or she is any less a baby. I'd rather live in a world that says yes things go wrong with conception and birth but if you're not perfect it's ok, society will look after you, rather than giving parents the feeling that if they do have a disabled child they really won't be able to cope.

Kungfu, I got the information from Italian newspapers. I'll go and check again.

So writer....

The woman who is on her own, ill health and 45...her parents both died when they were in their early sixties. Should she keep the child with DS?

Or the woman who is a single parent working full time on £45, she has five children all at school. She finds out her baby has severe disabilities, perhaps Edwards syndrome. She's about to lose £3000 child benefit and would have to give up work to look after this baby....what would you advise her to do?

Writer....you only have to read some of the fucking brutal times parents of children with SN have and the lack of support to know society will not help you.

Why would it take someone 9 whole months to decide if they want to be a mother or not?

Come on if you don't want a child get the jab, or the implant. I don't think women should be able to get 8 months in and think, "know what this is not for me!" i think that is horrific!

Do you not agree DF that it's right to take a stand on a moral issue that might have implications for society as a whole? Ok you don't want a designer baby, but by saying it's up to everyone else you're implying that society has no right to expect certain standards from its citizens.

What struck me all the time I worked with disabled people was their voicelessness. They cannot advocate for those aborted babies. We as women stood against the female infanticide in eastern countries and it is a much less common (but by no means eradicated) practice now. Many of the parents who wish to abort female children could give you very good reasons for their choice yet I think very few people would support them. Why is it ok in that case to get rid of disabled children?

Posie I don't have an all or nothing attitude towards abortion. In those cases a very good case could be made for abortion based on the fact that those families could not really care for a child with disabilities (although if the baby was born it is more than likely it would be looked after).

My problem is more with the fact that a couple with every possiblity of caring for a disabled child is made to feel by the NHS and society in general that it is somehow strange or wrong to go ahead with a pregnancy when an disability is detected. The fact that the huge huge proportion of 92% of DS babies are aborted shows how prevalent this attitude is. Yes Down Syndrome is a very serious condition but just because someone has that anomaly doesn't mean they aren't entitled to live.

Believe me Posie I know about the terrible time that most parents of disabled children have. My point is that I don't want to live in a society like that.

Me either! Writerofdreams

I still think this is an unbalanced view. Should women be denied assistance with fertility? Should pregnant women not get their iron & vitamin supplements? Should premature babies not be hospitalised? These are all man-made interferences with the natural course of things. They all contribute to the simple aspiration "Every child a wanted child" - which I support wholeheartedly, and which includes on-demand abortion.

PosieComeHereMyPreciousParke it is comments like that that stopped me posting on the sn topic,

My view on that Ghoul is that those things you mentioned are creating and supporting life rather than destroying it. I am in favour of creating life and nuturing it, but not of devaluing it and destroying it. So I am in favour of fertility treatment, vitamins and support for premature babies, but not of a system that says "Well if you're baby's not perfect it's better for you to get rid of it."

YANBU.

It's genocide.

I can only really give an opinion on how I feel personally about my choice RE having a baby with chromosonal issues. I basically do disagree with people being able to choose eye colour, skin colour, attractiveness (beauty) etc I think as far as life threatening disease and life effecting abnormalities go (and I mean those which would effect the child and the family) then having the choice to test for the more severe things is a good thing. It has to be a choice though.

Chosing to abort because of Sex is not something I would agree with.

Writer, perhaps you think you'll find utopia? Perhaps people who abort these pregnancies don't want to be carers as well as parents for twenty years?