To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

WriterOfDreams does not speak for Ireland. She says she can't express to a British person how hard it is 'for an irish person' to hear abortion mentioned so casually, and that she knows nobody in RL who's had an abortion. I'm referring to her in the third person because she has announced rather imperiously that she won't engage with me.

Fine, well I'll offer up a bit of balance. I'm also from Ireladn and I do know people who've had abortions. They're careful who they tell though, and with good reason.

so why not just make it equal.
It has been pointed out that very few terminations happen "late" so why not mke it equal, raise the time limit to birth for both.
if people are correct it won't make any real difference, but it would stop discrimination pre birth.

WriterofDreams i think a lot of people search for excuses, they blame their existing children, they blame society, they even blame parents who don't terminate and think them selfish.
anything rather than saying I am doing this for me

Valiumskeleton, I am also from Ireland and have always been very pro-choice in that context. I do think, as I said above, that culturally we have seen every single argument for the pro-life and pro-choice lobby trotted out and our opinions are perhaps coloured by this (whatever we may think about abortion).

I know a number of friends here in the UK who have aborted and will be quite open about that fact. I may very well have friends in Ireland who have aborted but would never share that information. There is a cultural difference and I myself was amazed to meet women of my age who would casually mention abortion. It doesn't really reflect my opinions on abortion per se.

Xenia - the Romans. Again?

I am irresistably reminded of "What did the Romans ever do for us?"

There are terminations carried out all the time in n ireland in cases were babies are disabled. Although technically abortion isnt legal they will offer them to mothers who are carrying a disabled child. These terminations are not officially recorded. The op statement that terminating a disabled child is a uk thing is incorrect

I wouldn't casually discuss my abortion. Only a few real life people know. I do mention it on here in debate because I can do it fairly anonymously but would never just tell people casually. Same with my Miscarriage, more people know about it than I would have liked to be honest.

Since this is really a 'debate' about abortion in general (though people are nobly trying to keep it to the more-debatable issue of abnormality testing), I may as well state my position: as some may have noticed, it's one of the few areas where my position is cut-and-dried. Every un-implanted sperm, every shed egg, is a baby that didn't happen - a potential human life. Once the blastocyst is formed, we feel differently about it only because a sperm and egg have joined up with the intention of making a baby. This is a totally haphazard event. There is NOTHING special or extraordinary about it, except in the broadest, woolliest, philosophical sense.

The ensuing bunch of cells and chemical reactions are, likewise, evolutionary developments that happen through no effort of choice or will. Until that bunch of cells emerges as a separate being, taking up a separate space in the physical world, it is a cellular growth in its host mother's body. And the host has the right, in my view, to decide what to do about it.

Yes, I do know about all the emotional & hormonal impacts. I've been pregnant and miscarried numerous times - the experiences have clarified my viewpoint. I suspect the overriding difference between me and posters with opposing views is a theological/philosophical one. I don't believe in any sort of god; I don't believe life is any sort of miracle except an evloutionary one. The sheer randomness, ingenuity and chaos of Nature is miraculous enough for me. I celebrate the human ability to adapt nature's random happenings, and that includes fertility-and-birth control.

4plus does your post say n ireland, as in Northern Ireland?

WOD this is the second time I have had to correct your assertion that there are no conditions that cannot be diagnosed until 24 weeks. It is factually incorrect and you are not the only person who has made this error.

The foetus is still not full formed at 20 weeks. I personally have been given the "all clear" at a 20 week anomoly scan, only to be told at a later stage that my baby had syptoms that were incompatible with life.

I have two friends (it is the circles I move in these days I'm afraid!) that had their babies severe kidney and heart conditions diagnosed at 30+ weeks. I also have a friend who again got the all clear for her baby at the 20 week scan only to have her baby delivered at 30 weeks with abnormalities which meant he dies when he was three days old.

I personally am waiting for a further scan at 28 weeks to check my baby's progress - that is not being carried out for my entertainement but because at 22 weeks the consultant simply cannot be sure.

In addition to that many people do not have the chromosomal tests to which you refer. They are not routine and many woman choose not to have them believing that they could cope with, to coin your phrase of earlier, a simple "learning difficulty" such as Downs.

It is often only much later (often post 24 weeks - or near enough for the logisitics of obtaining a termination to take that woman over the 24 week limit) when that chromosomal disorder manifests itself in hydrops, heart deffects, absent bowels etc.

And most people are happy to abort disabled children more readily than others. It's a fact in most cultures and most people can understand why that is so. The child once there is loved etc but it is usually not what the parents wanted and in terms of that awful word social utility the disabled do come with a huge cost in terms of the parents' time and effort - some parents of disabled children have very very hard lives and will have to care for that child until they are over 80 and beyond. It is not what many parents want and nor of course can some (but not all) disabled adults contribute to society in an economic sense so presumably that's part of the reason they are less valued.

Wow, 4plus1, really?! That turns this whole thread upside down!

Nancy, WOD doesn't let mere facts get in the way of her agenda discussion.

I believe 4plus1 meant Northern Ireland which of course is in the UK, rather than Ireland which is a separate country.

Sorry Nancy, my mistake. BTW I never said Down Syndrome was a "simple learning difficulty" I have researched DS in a major university so I'm aware of its implications.

'your response was so sarcastic and derisory that I stepped back from the thread to avoid turning it into a debate, which is of no use to Tess.'

'With respect', my response to you is that if you are pro-life, why not walk the walk, step in and take on all the childcare and responsibility the OP was being expected to take on by her stepdaughter's decision not to terminate?

You find that saracastic and derisory, I find that putting your money where your mouth is.

If you feel women shouldn't have the choice to terminate, then it goes to follow you'll stand by that principle with real-life day-to-day support for all that goes into bringing up a child you've been forced to bear, or step in and devote yourself to assisting grandparents effectively forced to parent children they don't want.

"In addition to that many people do not have the chromosomal tests to which you refer. They are not routine and many woman choose not to have them believing that they could cope with, to coin your phrase of earlier, a simple "learning difficulty" such as Downs."

I have to agree.

Nuchal scans are not routinely done in the UK, in many places you have to pay privately and not everyone will or can. They may only find out that there is a problem with the foetus at or after the 20 week scan and may then have to wait longer for more scans and tests.

And I agree, 2shoes. If the right to terminate is up till birth for disabled foetuses, then it should be the same for all.

'As early as possible, as late as necessary.'

Or not at all.

I also agree with dueling that your view of the potential unborn child are largely dependent on the mothers feeling which is another good argument as to why a decision to continue any pregnancy should be a personal one, not one that is sanctioned by the state.

I appreciate I am getting far too emotionally involved in thsi thread but also:

Like a number of other posters I have had an termination for "social reasons". I was at school and having a baby was not what I wanted. The idea that someone could have forced me to have that baby is horrific. I see little difference between the way that I felt then and the idea that a woman could be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she did not want because of the disability of that baby.

If a woman does not want a child for whatever reason - surely we shoulhd not be forcing them against their will?

I cannot say I felt emotionless about my termination but certainly far less emotional than when I had a miscarriage at an earlier stage than that which the termination had been carried out at.

And FWIW I never talk "casually" about my termination. Very few people know about it and it is not something that ever really comes up in RL.

Which is why this isn't a straightforward pro-life/pro-choice debate.

I support all women's right to choose but am frankly horrified that termination is offered up to birth for babies with disabilities. I don't think the fact that a small number of families choose this option makes it okay that we consider this legally acceptable.

valium - I have noticed.

Being ill informed is one thing. Continuing to spout nonsense after you have been corrected is infuriating.

I found this at The Site:

"It is currently illegal for anyone to have an abortion the Republic of Ireland. However, the law does allow pregnant women to receive counselling and information about all their options. Make sure you choose a respected counselling service as some anti-abortion campaign groups have been known to masquerade as counselling services. If you then decide to have an abortion, it is your legal right to leave Ireland in order to do so.

Most women travel to England, Scotland or Wales where it is legal to have an abortion up to 24 weeks of pregnancy as detailed in the Northern Ireland section above."

So, in Eire, you consult a counselling service which can provide the information on coming to the UK for your abortion. Convenient for those who cannot reconcile their thoughts.

arses are you horrified because of the distinction between the termination of disabled/non disabled babies post 24 weeks or because you are horrified by post 24 week termination in itself?

Because as I have already stated woman can, and do, terminate perfectly healthy babies post 24 weeks.

It usen't to be the case that it was legal to travel. We had a referendum after the X case which was mentioned on the other thread which secured the right to travel. Prior to 1992, we did not have this right. Sadly, the right to choose (what was called the "substantive issue") was not voted through.

There was much disgust from those of us who supported the right to choose at the time, believe me.

I'm the only woman I know (in my generation), who hasn't had a termination. As I'm now aware, this is only because I didn't easily conceive. The idea that contraception is infallible is as erroneous as many of the others in this thread.