To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

fluffy it's not the disabled child that fucks anything up. It's the lack of support.

I think very very few women simply don't fancy a disabled child or conside them second class.

It's just that they live in the real world with real families and a very real and utterly unhelpful state.

Jellybeans there are some conditions that are definitely fatal and those are the ones that I believe warrant abortion. Anencephaly is fatal in the sense that the baby will definitely not live beyond a week. If the outcome is uncertain then I believe it's better to wait and hope than to just end the life.

I agree with what you say Whitethorn, I do think there is a cultural element here. When you come from a culture where abortion is illegal hearing people talk openly about abortions particularly of wanted children comes as quite a shock. I also agree that some Irish women find themselves in horrific situations due to the blanket ban on abortion. The niece of a work colleague had to carry an anencephalic baby to term which I think is barbaric.

In terms of what you said Ghoul about my statement that people should not have sex, would you not agree that if a person doesn't truly understand sex then he or she shouldn't be engaging in it? It just doesn't seem right to me that someone can be put in such a vulnerable position.

whitehorn not all test are done at 12 weeks. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

A CVS can be done from just over 9 weeks, an amniocenticis from 16. Results take 2 weeks for a full karotype analysis.

Many disorders cannot be identified until much later in pregnancy. Why do you think woman have a 20 week scan? It's not for fun. It is the point at which serious structural abnormalities can be identified.

I really dont understand why people who abort their Downs pregnancies do not state exactly why, which is it will upset my family dynamic and really compromise our lives. That is absolutelty fair enough but don't dress it up as;
I worry about health or future of my child cos you really never know what is around the corner.

Yup, Flying. I just find it strange that anyone believes it's possible to set parameters on such a variegated thing as birth/life/sickness/death. I had an mc at 20-ish weeks. Dead, no doubt about it. The day before yesterday, I saw on TV a baby born at 20wks being nurtured in an ICU and sent home healthy at full-size. Yet, as we've seen here, babies last the whole 9 months and are born dead while others live only a few days - and so on. It's not as if you can make rules and then expect life to follow them.

WoD - no, I absolutely do not agree that cewrtain people shouldn't have sex. To my mind, the thought is extremely discriminatory. It IS the thought that led to the eugenics programme. I think you have outed yourself spectacularly with these remarks!

I had my CVS, following a nuchal showing odds of 1:9, at 18 weeks.

I am aware of that nancydrew but I still believe that the term limit is too late. I had my 20 week last week and it really brought home how developed a foetus is at that stage.

I am staunchly pro choice so dont think I have the right to limit any womens reasonable choice but I do question that if you only want a child with no problems, should you be having one at all.

I stand my earlier statement, maybe at a push 16 but past then i think its pretty horrific.
If my current pregnancy ends with a baby with a disability I am sure I will curse my situation and will face a more difficult path but is that not what you take on when having children.

So if a person has a mental disability such that he or she can't understand what sex is about, you still think it's ok for another person to engage in sex with that person? Surely there is something abusive about that situation? Many verbal adults with Down Syndrome by the way can understand sex and engage in a fulfilling sexual relationship. Some couples with DS have had children. However, how can you consent to sex (and thus not be raped) if you don't understand what sex is?

TheWriterOfDreams: I can see no consistency in your list of 'acceptable' circumstances in which abortion can occur.

I understand people who are absolutely against all abortion on the grounds that an embryo is human life and absolutley sacrosanct from the moment of conception. If that is your view stick to it, because if you start making exceptions you are doing what pro-choicers do - understanding that abortion is a valid choice and allowing a woman to take control over what happens in her body.

I find it horrible that anyone can force a woman to remain pg against her will because she has to take responsibility fo having got pg . That is tantamount to saying that pg is a punishment for unprotected sex, or a sex life at all, since so many contraceptive failures occur.

Babies should not be born to women as a 'you made your bed, you lie in it and take your just deserts' way. The birth of a baby should not be a punishment.

All things considered, I think that a woman should be able to choose abortion at any time. The incidence of late abortion would be microscopic.

whitehorn at least one woman on this thread has stated why she terminated her baby who had downs because it was not going* to survive.

I have also stated that I would have terminated a pregnancy with Downs because I have no desire to give birth to another dead baby

The ignorance on this thread is astounding.

There are many factors in deciding not to have baby with a significant diasbility. Who on earth are you to say which of those factors are valid?

Another very significant consideration of mine was whilst I could make a decision whether I was prepared to be a long term carer to my child, could I make that decision for my two children who already exist. Because that would be the reality - one of them would have to care for a disabled sibbling after I died. Does that meet your approval or too much dressing up for you?

"I don't think it's realistic to expect a woman in that circumstance to continue with the pregnancy."

but she's still killing a 'person' which you have said is wrong, an innocent result of a bad situation but innocent non the less. I don't understand how you can make a distinction between a 'child' conceived of rape based upon the mother's feelings and a child with a life effecting disability based upon the parents feelings.

You said yourself: "Well having a baby=good, killing someone=bad"

But what you mean is "Well having a baby=good, killing someone unless they were conceived through rape=bad"

Whitethorn plenty of people do state that exactly.

well said Blu

And whitehorn again....I had a specialist cardiac scan yesterday at 21 weeks. Yes my baby was perfectly formed but the reason I was having it was because the chances of it having a severe heart deffect were very high.

Had I received the news yesterday that the baby did in fact have a serious condition should me and my family have been forced to sit around for the next 20 week waiting for the likelihood of a stillbirth because in your eyes the fetus, although not actually viable, was too "formed" for your liking?

Obviously you did just make that little soundbite up then Writer.

And by the way, most DS babies are born to women UNDER thirty.

Your thinking is hidesouly black and white and you back up your views up with your own ideas which you present as facts.

It's people like you that made Ireland a petri dish for abuse and suffering.

Sex is great and I love it. However, I am aware that it can result in another life. That's just a fact. I don't consider my right to a sex life to be more important to the separate and distinct life I may create by having sex. IMO saying abortion is necessary to allow women to have a sex life is a bit scary really.

I think you're adding your own values to "what sex is about", Writer. Taking your posts on the matter sequentially, I've read your stance as follows:

1. Women who have unprotected sex may get pregnant.
2. Women who get pregnant may have a disabled child.
3. Consquentially, any woman who has consenting sex is implicitly taking on the possible responsibility for a disabled child.
4. Therefore any woman who has unprotected sex without accepting that responsibility is mentally incompetent.
5. This logic demonstrates that mentally incompetent women should not have sex.
6. If they are so stupid they don't understand this, they should be sterilised.

Once again, I refer you to the European eugenic programme.

I can't read this thread because I find it too upsetting but I HAVE to post. I just have to say it.

DP is disabled and would've been aborted, had the technology been available.

He is the most wonderful man I've ever met. Clever, charismatic, sucessful and THE best father.

'Jellybeans there are some conditions that are definitely fatal and those are the ones that I believe warrant abortion.'

But others believe different circumstances warrant abortion so that is why it is left to the individual. Also, sometimes doctors have believed a condition to be fatal but it hasn't been. There is no way of knowing for sure even with simelar conditions.

I find is strange that one person accuses me of having grey thinking (for agreeing with abortion in some circumstances) and another accuses me of black and white thinking.

Rape is an exceptional case. The woman was attacked and her right to autonomy was taken away. The pregnancy that results from that attack was not her choice in any way. That's why I believe abortion is acceptable in that case. The world isn't black and white unfortunately.

Fluffy I don't understand your question.

I can't really answer that Ghoul. I didn't say people who don't accept responsibility are incompetent I said people who don't understand sex (ie sex makes a baby) shouldn't have it.

Oh, look, I was an 'accident' and never allowed to forget it. The condom broke. Had abortion on demand been available at the time & place, I wouldn't be here writing this. A large part of the reason why I am on Mumsnet, though, is for the support I get in facing the issues that result from being a perfectly healthy, perfectly well-fed & educated, unwanted child.

My support for unconditional fertility-and-birth control is more complex and political than this one personal issue. But - to those who like to imagine what the foetus would say if it had a voice - here's mine: Terminate!
Every child a wanted child ...

PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker I have to apologise as I didn't realise you had a disabled child.