to be cross at this casual sexism?

[whatdoiknowanyway]

First post although I have lurked for some time. Would really appreciate your opinions.
DD is 17 and just returned from a World Challenge training weekend.

I realise those with younger children might not have come across World Challenge yet. Basically, next summer she and 30 odd others from her school will be trekking in Borneo. They have to be mentally and physically fit, work well in teams and raise the money for the trip themselves. World Challenge is an independent company which facilitates these trips for many schools and other youth organisations.

Anyway, she is working hard at her part time job and is looking forward to the experience.

I was just a bit taken aback with comments made by their trainer (a 62 yr old man) over the weekend. Samples:
"Right I'd like the boys to finish unloading the kit and the girls to start cooking supper"
"You'll all have sewing kits but boys, if you are struggling I'm sure the girls will help you"
"OK, I'd like 2 strong lads to help me with this" - when challenged on this he amended it to "lads or ladettes then"

...and on handing out the emergency/rape alarm for the safety of the whole team "one of the girls take the 'girl' alarm".

I'm not naive, I know sexist attitudes persist but AIBU to think that a paid, trained employee of an established company providing (not cheap) services to youth organisations should know better than to come out with stuff like this?

Before being accepted onto World Challenge all the kids had to pass a fitness test and out on the trip will be responsible for carrying their own kit etc. There is nothing asked of them that a healthy 15-17 year old girl should be any less capable of doing than a boy - and vice versa.

I don't imagine this is going to have any impact on my daughter (far too sure of her own place in the world :)) but I just feel it is inappropriate in 2010 for a youth trainer to come out with this sort of casual comment and I don't think it should go unchallenged (by the adults, the kids already took him to task).
I wanted to send an email to the teacher organising the trip, first and last thanking him for facilitating the training weekend but also making this point. My husband thinks it's trivial and I should not bother.
AIBU?

YANBU, complain. He wouldn't get away with it in a normal work setting so why should he here?

YABU... 62 year-old men probably shouldn't but do say those kinds of things. And if the girls in the group thought he was a stupid old duffer and challenged his remarks then that was a very positive (maybe even deliberate?) result. Your husband is right... don't make a fuss over it.

YANBU - that kind of crap can be annoying to put up with and there's no need for it to happen. It's not like you're saying the guy should be flogged - just told to watch what he says. He's doing a job, not out for a jolly trip with his mates. He needs to treat all his charges professionally and with courtesy.

YABU. If she's tough enough for a world challenge, she ought to be tough enough to deal with the real world. The young adults have already taken him to task - if you can't let them fight their own battles at home in a culture they are familiar with, they aren't ready to go. Perhaps that's what some of it is about and working in teams means working with those you don't necessarily agree with but finding a way to reach objectives in spite of it.

YANBU

oncemai, being able to take part in a world challenge definitely should not mean that she should be the one cooking on the ground that she is female nor should it be implied that boys are useless at sewing. I really do not think that "being tough" = taking sexisme on the chin really.

My DS went on World Challenge and had a brilliant time. He never, at any time, said that anyone used sexist language like your DD's instructor did.

I think it might be down to the age of the guy (ageist remark!) He probably makes these remarks unconsciously and won't see how old fashioned he sounds. A quiet word to the group organiser at WC is probably all that's needed.

Final point. The boys and girls will all have to muck in together on the trip, and it is not unlikely that one of the team may fall ill and need help with his or her rucksack (as happened on a WC expedition a friend's DD was on). One boy needed help and the biggest strongest boys took turns with his rucksack. Not sexist, just sensible.

Ahhh..I think the girls should all make his life hell whenever he makes a sexist remark!! I certainly would have at that age ..I'm not sure I would complain if I'm honest unless the remarks were upsetting my daughter/the young women.

Think you've misinterpreted what I said Gory. I mean they need to stand up for themselves as young adults and that's part of the challenge as is dealing with views which they don't agree. I didn't say the old chap was right or that they should adopt stereotyped role models on the trip.

Onceamai, in that sense yes then! Sorry for misunderstanding

I don't think you would say that, onceami, if what he had said wasn't stereotyping girls but stereotyping black people. It's just as offensive, imo, and I wouldn't expect people to put up with it under any circumstances.

Thanks, that is all reassuring.

Btw, this isn't about fighting my daughter's battles. She and her friends already sent a mixed group to unload the kit, pointed out both genders had same level of sewing skills, pulled the trainer up for asking for '2 strong lads' and gave the emergency alarm to the most fragile member of the group (a boy as it happens). They're not the type of young women you mess with. The boys were also critical of his attitude.

My query was really as olderandwider said - about whether there should be a quiet word to the group organiser at WC. He is being paid to train them to deal with physical hazards not to reinforce outdated gender stereotypes.

I completely take the point about sometimes the strongest have to help the weaker and in many cases that will mean the bigger boys carrying loads for others. That's just common sense. But it shouldn't rule out the girls also playing their part and sharing loads when appropriate. It's down to ability. Sometimes that is dicatated by gender but not always.

YANBU - as crimsonpetal has just pointed out, there would be an outcry if it had racial undertone

I can't think why but if he was an unpaid volunteer it would bother me less but as he is a paid employee then I really think you should say something.

When I worked for a charity all volunteers were given equality training which kind of negates my own first point

I'd leave it. The group seem to be coping/dealing with it and that is part of learning to deal with the world. I think it's a bit helicopter-y to start complaining to the organisation.

oh and good on the kids for taking him to task

I don't think you should accept this casual sexism because they have to deal with it with it in the real world anyway. That is the sort of attitude that allows sexists to flourish.

Stamp on it and challenge at every opportunity. Sounds like the group are a bit brighter than their instructor anyway.

I am not saying the OP "accepts" it. I am saying the group is dealing with it. Doesn't need the parent to also weigh in. IMO.

I've had quite a bit of experience with World Challenge, and unfortunately some of the instructors are a bit old and bold or lack a few social skills. However, "I want two strong lads" I really wouldn't consider as sexist, males generally have more developed muscles than females; granted you get quite large female body builders but you get what I mean, besides, he might have already sized up the team already and deduced there were some very strong males who can easily do the heavy-labour. He may well have said it just by habit.

When you're on expedition, using people to their merits and strengths is really essential, so he might have been assigning the stereotypical male jobs to males and vice versa for females, then reassessing if that doesn't work. I'm not sure, WC exped leaders work in weird and "wonderful" ways.

IME with complaining to WC, I'm afraid there's really not much point. A friend of mind complained after his son returned from Peru which was ruined by the WC leader constantly ignoring safety regs and purposefully splitting the team's friendships. They complained through various means, but it appears that it fell on deaf ears and they have just learnt the leader is still being employed by WC.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but he's probably just a bad apple in a bunch of good'uns.

If it is persistent and not being dealt with after challenging it , then it needs further intervention - parents or school.

Just adding to my previous post, in case you were wondering, the 62 year old instructor won't be the one taking your daughter on her main exped, so there's no need to worry for the future :) Just in case you were concerned about that.

Complain. Better yet encourage your dd to write the first of a lifetime of letters sticking up forherself and her gender. My dad wouldn't say thus kind of thing and he is 80 and an ex- miner and marine.

And remind her that 'well behaved women rarely make history' which might be fridge magnet philosophy but is also rather lovely. :)

If WC is employing wankers then schools need to know so they don't put any business their way.

WingDad....don't apologise on this idiots behalf about lifting of equipment!

Haha, no apologies from me, I'm just trying to find a helpful and rational explanation to things :)

I think you should complain. Yes, the group dealt with it admirably themselves, but that only means he will probably tone it down for them, but other groups will get the same sexist treatment. I would also be quite specific about what was wrong - pick on the best examples, which for me would be assuming the boys carry stuff and the girls cook. Point out that they should each get to do both as part of the trip. Sewing likewise.

I take the point that WC don't seem receptive to complaints, but the answer to that is to complain more, not less - then they are more likely to feel in the end they have to take notice.

Eightieschick is right. Plus the girls have dealt with it with the instructor but the company need to write thiskind of thing into their training. There was an umbrella gap year organisation being set up at one point - they might be worth going to if you get no response from WC.

Also WC do education projects I think, probably in areas where women have it pretty rough, so they definitely need to stamp it out of their organisational culture.